Doug PollardWikiLeaks, the end of privacy?
Leader of the Australian Sex Party Fiona Patten privacy, true freedom of information, Julian Assange, Bradley Manning, and Amazon, PayPal etc.
DOUG: We’re going to talk with the Australian Sex Party’s leader Fiona Patten because about the only thing that’s shoved Oprah from the top of the news this week and kept her off there - - -
FIONA: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - mercifully - - -
[laughs]
DOUG: Was Wikileaks and its founder Julian Assange.
FIONA: It’s amazing there wasn’t an Oprah Wikileak.
DOUG: I’m waiting.
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: We really do need to see something on that, I think. Love to see the cable between Oprah and the tourism department.
FIONA: M’mm.
DOUG: Who knows what may come out next; now, I’ve been trying to get people to comment and talk about the Wikileaks thing. The obvious place I went to firstly was Amnesty International and I basically got palmed-off: We cannot comment about this and nobody’s been charged with anything yet. Or: Nothing’s been proven. A lot of bureaucratic flim-flam.
FIONA: Yes. Which is surprising because it is on the front page of every paper and it is you know? The conversation at the tram stop.
DOUG: It’s kind-of astonishing isn’t it - - -
FIONA: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - that it’s completely taken over the news. Every front page for days-and-days has been another Wikileak.
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: I have to say an awful lot of them have confirmed our prejudices.
[laughs]
FIONA: It’s more that it’s embarrassing, really. Isn’t it?
DOUG: Well, let’s not forget that this started with Bradley Manning wanting to expose what he saw and what probably were but we don’t know at this point, for sure.
FIONA: M’mm.
DOUG: So I’d better be careful there; what were apparently American war crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq.
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: That was his initial motivation – now, why he went on from there to allegedly and again, we don’t know whether it was him or there were other people involved ‘cause Wikileaks haven’t told us who their sources are; why then all these cables came out.
FIONA: Yeah.
DOUG: Which is as you say, embarrassing. We don’t know at this point now a lot of people are saying this is going to be a bad thing in the long run because this is going to make governments even more paranoid about their communications and even more secretive.
FIONA: M’mm. I don’t know whether I’m just constantly forever the optimist but I think we really have actually come to a crossroads and governments need to understand their notions of secrecy no longer work. We are in an information revolution and the population expects to receive information, expects to get this information and governments can no longer hide behind freedom of information acts – or freedom from information as it’s generally known – they need to start thinking about how they do deal with the new – well, not the new paradigm. But the - - -
DOUG: It’s an over-worked phrase, dear.
FIONA: - - - yes. That’s right. The new world order of information and people’s feeling-of-right to information.
DOUG: Do you think having all this information we now have had from the diplomatic cables and that, is a good thing or a bad thing?
FIONA: I think predominantly it’s – you know? Look, some of it is – I would like to think you and I could have a frank conversation that didn’t necessarily get heard by the world. However, we’re in the 21st-century as Steve Jobs said: privacy, you haven’t got it, get over it. We have to accept that we’re living in a very different world, now and I think when the main objective was to expose some very serious war crimes and yes – a whole bunch of other frothy material came out – overall it was a good thing.
DOUG: The media is tending to make a bit of a hero out of Julian Assange.
FIONA: M’mm.
DOUG: In the midst of all this; don’t you think that’s just a tad hypocritical in some respects because he’s only doing what any other media outlet does, isn’t he?
FIONA: That’s right. If it was Laurie Oakes who’d got this information I guess he’d be up for a Walkley [Annual Award].
DOUG: M’mm.
FIONA: For exposing this information and bringing it to light.
DOUG: Because that’s the only way journalists get anything out; somebody leaks to them.
FIONA: That’s right and Wikileaks is a media organisation, people need to be quite aware of that and I think because it’s on the internet somehow it seems different to whether it was printed or on the 9a.m.-Today-Show. Or if it was on the front page of the Australian.
DOUG: The media don’t seem to know actually, do they whether to make a hero or a villain out of Julian Assange?
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: He goes from one to the other day-by-day.
FIONA: Yeah. I think because there are these charges he’s facing as well, that blurs the lines. There’s this notion he’s in gaol but he’s not in gaol because of Wikileaks.
DOUG: No.
FIONA: I don’t have that really strong conspiracy brain – that other gene, that other people have.
[laughs]
DOUG: We also have playing into this what some newspapers have characterised as a rape charge and other newspapers have tended to downplay and dismiss as a peculiarity of Swedish law.
FIONA: Yeah. I’m not a legal expert and certainly not an expert with international law but the easiest way to deal with this would be for Julian to go and face the court, face the charges and certainly where’s he’s sitting today he would get a very fair – a very fair trial and it would be extremely well reported.
DOUG: Yeah but he’s afraid of getting extradited to the US and we don’t know what pressure is being applied.
FIONA: Yeah; again, I would be kind-of surprised if Sweden had softer extradition laws than the UK. When you think the UK and the US have been political and military allies for a hundred years at least.
DOUG: Let’s look at the likely impact of all this, governments now have a choice don’t they.
FIONA: M’mm.
DOUG: They have a choice either to try and somehow choke this all off, try and ensure it doesn’t happen in the future by some way – or – as you say, they can accept the situation and realise it’s not just one leak they’ve got to plug. Because now that it’s happened once – you know? You plug this hole and another one is going to spring-up so how can governments operate if they don’t have any truly secret communications?
FIONA: I certainly think governments do need to be able communicate, confidentially and there are positions for that. But also I think we need to flip ‘round – using Australia as an example – our freedom of information and say all government information is free unless the government says no, there are national security considerations to keep information confidential.
DOUG: (and) To have that testable in the court, perhaps.
FIONA: Yes, that’s right. I think the Freedom of Information Act (1982) started with that notion but now anyone who has dealt with the Act knows - - -
DOUG: That it’s anything but.
FIONA: - - - and I think we do need to flip that around; information should be public unless they can prove that it shouldn’t be.
DOUG: So basically if the government wants to keep anything secret they should need to apply to a court for permission - - -
FIONA: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - to keep something secret?
FIONA: I think it is just turning it around, that way. To say that all information should be open to the taxpayers and to the people the governments are working for.
DOUG: That also puts the onus of paying the lawyers’ fees onto the government.
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: They’re more likely to be able to afford it than you or I.
FIONA: Yes, exactly. Exactly and I think we should realise we are in an information revolution now. We all are starting to believe we should have the true stories and expect to have a lot more information probably than we did 10-years ago.
DOUG: M’mm, slightly more troubling I think in some respects – well, before we move off the politics I’ll quote one thing – I think it was an Egyptian diplomat said to Kevin Rudd something along the lines of – Kevin Rudd was commiserating with him and saying ‘some of your confidential conversations were leaked on Wikileaks the other day and I know how that feels’ and the guy said to Kevin Rudd ‘yes but what I’d said in private was the same as what I’d said in public’.
[laughs]
DOUG: If this encourages our politicians to be a bit more honest in public I think it can only do them good in the long run.
FIONA: I have to say I feel like Kevin Rudd’s been loving this, Wikileaks – you know? I was talking earlier – again, I mean it’s almost like when he was caught at the strip club. It’s made him seem a lot more real - - -
DOUG: Yes. Made him look a lot more interesting than Julia, again.
FIONA: Well that’s right.
DOUG: [laughs]
FIONA: You know? Kevin has really struggled with looking interesting.
DOUG: Fascinating.
FIONA: It has been interesting.
DOUG: Politicians have to realise – come on, we’re not stupid. We have a pretty fair idea of when they’re trying to pull the wool over our eyes; stop doing it.
FIONA: That’s right.
DOUG: (and) Be more honest about your motivations.
FIONA: Yeah and we even saw that with the NBN [National Broadband Network] where the government managed to filter a 5000-page report into 50-pages and say right, that’s all the information you really need.
DOUG: Of course John Brumby who said you don’t need to know the details of this or that contract, you know? I do – but you don’t.
FIONA: That’s right.
DOUG: Yeah. You can’t do that anymore.
FIONA: No and I think unfortunately, politicians don’t have a great reputation so that notion: trust me I know what’s best.
DOUG: [laughs] Doesn’t work anymore.
FIONA: Does not work with the public.
DOUG: As I started saying beforehand, slightly more disturbing for me have been the actions of companies like PayPal, Visa, MasterCard – with no apparent legal pressure nor legal evidence of any kind – shutting down the flow of funds for Wikileaks.
FIONA: Yep.
DOUG: That profoundly disturbs me.
FIONA: I think that is one of the most troubling and disturbing issues in this whole situation, I totally agree with you Doug. That they have that power, you know? Not just with Wikileaks but with you and I. If Visa wants to stop a website well they can far more easily as we’re finding, than governments can.
DOUG: They seem to be doing it because the government says they might be going to charge them [Wikileaks] with espionage.
FIONA: Yeah.
DOUG: Whether he [Julian Assange] may be involved with espionage. Or are there more secret cables here we don’t know about?
[laughs]
DOUG: Sent to MasterCard and Visa.
[laughs]
FIONA: That’s right and no doubt they didn’t but there was an analogy recently, Amazon.
DOUG: Yes.
FIONA: Had a book on how to be a good paedophile; now, it was an appalling book. Amazon has this self-publishing thing – no-one had bought it except for the author. But it was an appalling book – now, Amazon said that they’re not here to decide freedom of speech: we’re not here to decide what someone can or can’t say. They stood by that until pressure mounted and they pulled the book.
DOUG: M’mm.
FIONA: But the person had actually no laws in America, where Amazon’s based but under public pressure they pulled the book and so people like Visa and MasterCard, PayPal – do have extraordinary powers, these days.
DOUG: Haven’t we kind-of encouraged them?
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: Particularly people like Amazon; by creating boycotts and demanding things be pulled – there was that silly business with the Air New Zealand ad, for example.
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: A non-kiss on the cheek for a gay cabin attendant and somebody complained and they pulled the whole thing.
FIONA: Yeah. I was just looking at the 10-most complained about ads, 2010.
DOUG: Are any of yours in there?
FIONA: Well, no.
[laughs]
FIONA: Sadly. I really was hopeful I had made it but – m’mm, no. Most of them had been complained about because of sexual themes. It was interesting only one had been upheld and they pulled the ad but the power these companies do have and I mean, PayPal. I regularly get erotic websites having PayPal freeze their cash.
DOUG: Yeah?
FIONA: Or even businesses like Sexpo. PayPal has frozen them out because they’ve said: ooh it’s a bit adult.
DOUG: Yes and it’s not really their place to make those decisions.
FIONA: No. It’s a legal business and whilst it’s a legal business they should be providing a service. Certainly I am aware PayPal, Visa and American Express are working very hard with on line porn sites and one of the best ways to stop those sites is to close the money source.
DOUG: Which of course is the flip side of this.
FIONA: That’s right. But there, illegal activity and if Visa’s providing merchant services for a child pornography site well then they are aiding and abetting.
DOUG: (and) There it’s very clear. But on the basis of a ‘phone call from Barack Obama or whoever, to say: stop sending money to Wikileaks - - -
FIONA: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - m’mm.
FIONA: Really, if they’re going to do that they should’ve done it to the Sydney Morning Herald, the Australian – the New York Times.
DOUG: [laughs]
FIONA: M’mm, news.com – Fairfax – every single one of them were providing that information.
DOUG: Yeah but I don’t see very many chances of putting Rupert Murdoch on the stand, soon.
[laughs]
FIONA: Does he own PayPal?
[laughs]
DOUG: Either here or in the US. But you’re quite right. They facilitate it just as much as - - -
FIONA: That’s right.
DOUG: - - - anybody else.
FIONA: They are all media agencies and are all making that information public and if it is an offence to make that offence public well then they’re all committing that same offence. Wikileaks didn’t steal the information, they were given it. No-one has questioned Wikileaks having stolen it.
DOUG: Indeed well thanks for coming in today, Fiona.
FIONA: Thank you, Doug.
DOUG: Good to air the various issues around this.
FIONA: Yes. Well, we’re all watching it with interest aren’t we?
DOUG: It’s made the newspapers interesting again, for a change.
FIONA: Yes.
DOUG: For a while, now we’ve got the Christmas season – well you can’t have everything. Fiona Patten thanks for your time today and do have a very good Christmas and New Year.
FIONA: Yes. Likewise and to all the listeners as well.
DOUG: See ya (sic); before we leave this topic completely I just wanted to say everyone seems to have conveniently forgotten the man who is alleged to have given Julian Assange all this material. Private 1st-Class Bradley Manning. He’s held in military custody and allegedly, in solitary confinement since May. Manning will celebrate – if that’s the right word for it, for a man who could be facing a death penalty if the US Army decides to bring espionage charges against him – his 23rd-birthday, tomorrow. So our thoughts go out to Bradley Manning.
Since this interview aired I have discovered that Bradley Manning has been held in solitary confinement for 23 hours per day since May. He is constantly monitored, he is not permitted to, for example, exercise in his cell, and he has been denied sheets and pillows for his bed.
