Doug PollardTranscript - The Hon Alastair Nicholson
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Doug
DOUG: Now, this hour we have a very special guest on board, we have – and I’ll see if I can get all his titles and everything else into this – we have Professor, the Honourable Alastair Bothwick Nicholson AO RFD QC former Chief Justice of the Family Court, joining us this morning and he’s just rushed in having been stuck in traffic and how are you this morning?
ALASTAIR: Very well thanks, Doug.
DOUG: It’s good to see you. Now, before we begin I think what we ought to do first is play your first choice of music and then I’ll ask you why you chose that particular piece so, what do you want to start with - - -
ALASTAIR: I think we might start with the: “Foggy Dew”.
[music]
DOUG: This hour we’re Digging Deeper with Alastair Nicholson who’s had a very distinguished career I think it’s fair to say both in the Military and in the Judiciary and along the way, run into quite a few issues of interest to our community; but I wanted to begin Alastair today, if I may, by taking you right back to the beginning to where and when you were born?
ALASTAIR: Sure – yes; well, Doug I was born in Melbourne but I went to Papua New Guinea when I was three months old – not that I remember [laughs] - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - but my parents lived up there and so my mother had come down here for the birth but then went back and we lived on a plantation about 50, 60 miles east of Port Moresby. That sounds a short distance but in fact, it used to take a couple of days on a canoe, usually, to get – m’mm, to get from Port Moresby to there.
DOUG: That’s a real, vanished world isn’t it?
ALASTAIR: It is, indeed.
DOUG: Being brought-up on a coffee plantation in what was then a Colony?
ALASTAIR: Yes, indeed. Indeed and so, we – of course the war came and my mother and I were evacuated to Australia. She had come from Melbourne and we came back to Melbourne and I went to school, here. Although we continued to live there ‘til I was at the end of my first year at university so I used to go back every possible holiday, back to PNG - - -
DOUG: What was it like living that sort of a life – I mean, weren’t you fairly isolated?
ALASTAIR: Yes and no, in a way I suppose we had about 70 Papuans working for us - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - and their families and you became quite friendly with them. There were – very friendly with some of them and there were other people in the District, other Europeans as well. So, it was quite a community in many ways but a very different community. The shadow of the war was always present, as I remember it when I went back there were – people had been very badly affected by it and – m’mm, it was something that overshadowed a lot of discussion and that sort of thing.
DOUG: Well, it brought major change, really, didn’t - - -
ALASTAIR: It did. (and)It brought major change to the Papuans, too - - -
DOUG: Yes.
ALASTAIR: - - - they – they, m’mm, got much more consideration I think, from the Administration and eventually worked towards independence so – I found it a very good background, I think it sort of - - -
DOUG: Did you enjoy your life there?
ALASTAIR: - - - loved it. Loved it, I – I used to really love going back ‘cause of difference. Different society, I could speak the local language – I can’t now although I could, then. So, I could really enjoy life there.
DOUG: Were you an active child, were you out-and-about – m’mm, you know – roaming the countryside?
ALASTAIR: As best as I could, yes. Yes, yes. It was so different to life in Australia that I think the contrasts were enormous and of course, boarding school in those days was a little bit like a prison so - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - [laughs] but - - -
DOUG: You came back to Melbourne and you went to – was it Scotch College - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes - - -
DOUG: - - - you went to?
ALASTAIR: - - - yes.
DOUG: That must have been a huge change, then – socially speaking, from having lived out there - - -
ALASTAIR: Oh, yes.
DOUG: - - - in fairly wild – sort of, environment and then suddenly, you’re – I begin to see why you went into the Military - - -
[laughs]
DOUG: - - - this was your first barracks.
[laughs]
ALASTAIR: Indeed, yes. Yes – well, I remember an English journalist who was imprisoned in China and I asked him how he got through it and he said he’d been at a British boarding school and I think - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - it was something of the same sort of thing.
DOUG: You say it was like that at that time; can you give us a flavour of what it was like, being a boy at Scotch College in those years?
ALASTAIR: Well, it was pretty lonely for me because my parents were a long way away. I had relatives but that’s not quite the same is - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - it? Also it was a very – one of my interests these days is bullying. ‘Cause bullying was a pretty common feature of life in school – all schools, I think. Still is unfortunately, in terms of - - -
DOUG: Unfortunately, yes.
ALASTAIR: But that’s – that’s a feature that I recall. There are many good things that I remember, there were great friendships which persist to this day - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - and the school’s actual teaching probably was – was excellent. That part of it was good. But - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
ALASTAIR: - - - there were other parts of being in effect, confined. Not living during the term, a normal life that I never wished on my own children.
DOUG: I was going to ask you about that - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - many people that go to a school like that and then they send their own children there and you think – well, you’re always saying you hated it but you’re sending your own - - -
ALASTAIR: [laughs]
DOUG: - - - children there.
ALASTAIR: I certainly wouldn’t allow mine – mine are girls, anyway. But they didn’t go to boarding school and they were never - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - going to [laughs] - - -
DOUG: Well, that’s good to hear. That’s good to hear; you mentioned about your interest in bullying, you’re involved in the Alana and Madeline Foundation - - -
ALASTAIR: That’s right. M’mm?
DOUG: - - - which I’ve had some connection with as well - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - because – through, when I was President of Chill Out - - -
ALASTAIR: Oh, yes.
DOUG: Up in Daylesford. They were our preferred charity for several years and I believe the association still continues - - -
ALASTAIR: It does, yes.
DOUG: - - - Chill Out, now - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: At one time you actually proposed that bullying ought to be made a crime?
ALASTAIR: Well, I didn’t go quite that far but what I’d said was that I think there has to be a complete reform of the law on bullying. I think that’s one of the possibilities and you could perhaps, justify that more in relation to cyber-bullying - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - which is a particularly insidious form of - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
ALASTAIR: My main issue was to try and get people to actually look at it. I don’t think we’ve caught-up with the problems bullying causes in our community and I’d like – I think it requires a lot more examination and criminal law although a blunt instrument can also be used as a means of education on occasion so that’s really the – really the idea that I had.
DOUG: M’mm, obviously bullying is an issue our community is extremely sensitive to ‘cause we know – something we talked earlier on today, one of my previous guests who’s travelling ‘round Australia on a challenging homophobia tour and - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - he’s going into schools and talking about the bullying issue. It’s obviously still a major, major problem. Particularly outside the big, urban centres.
ALASTAIR: I think that’s right.
DOUG: (and)Particularly for same sex attracted kids or kids who might be transgender, that is – I’ve been hearing some horrendous stories about kids being repeatedly thrown down staircases - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - and Principals turning a blind eye and all this kind of thing, I – this all stems I think and I don’t know if you agree with me but you’ve got to change – like, society’s attitude towards gays and lesbians - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - before you really make a stop to that bullying - - -
ALASTAIR: I’m sure that’s right and the insidious thing about bullying is that anyone who’s different tends to be the victim of bullying - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - and when people are regarded as different because they’re gay and lesbian - - -
DOUG: Or even just thought to be gay - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes, indeed. That’s right – in fact, there was a strange case in Canada – m’mm, a couple of years ago - - -
DOUG: - - - m’mm?
ALASTAIR: Where someone sued under the Discrimination legislation on the basis that they’d been described as: gay – and so on and this was very hurtful and that they lost. Because the Court for some strange reason found that because they were not gay then it wasn’t discriminatory - - -
[laughs]
DOUG: No, I don’t think it works quite like that - - -
[laughs]
ALASTAIR: I don’t think so; that was just one of those strange abhorations that you see, but it highlighted to me the - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - fact that that’s a very real problem, as well.
DOUG: You’ve long been concerned about the rights of the child and the treatment of children so it’s no surprise that you’re involved with Alana and Madeline. You’re also involved with something else to do with bullying?
ALASTAIR: Well, it’s run by Alana and Madeline. It’s the National Centre Against Bullying - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - and I Chair that.
DOUG: Right.
ALASTAIR: (and)That’s really a group of experts in the field – academics, psychologists, psychiatrists and others who have an interest in studying bullying and the control of bullying and – m’mm, we hold bi-annual conferences. We bring people from other parts of the world. We try and draw attention to the problems and we also act as a resource to government who do consult us quite often - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - about those issues. So, it’s a very interesting job which I – not a job, of course, it’s an interest which I took on while I was still Chief Justice but I’ve been [indistinct] ever since.
DOUG: I think that’s really good that you can – you know, when you have your background and your prestige and your name, that you can put your name to that and do something useful with it as it were - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: In something which is a huge problem, I’ve met some of the bullying victims when I did some writing about it. It’s not a pretty sight a lot of the time – let’s take a little break there and have a look at another piece of music – now, what would you like to put up, next?
ALASTAIR: M’mm – well, we’ll go – talking about discrimination we’ll go for: “You’ve Got To Be Carefully Taught” from South Pacific.
DOUG: That’s a very interesting piece of music because of when it was written - - -
ALASTAIR: Exactly.
DOUG: - - - people don’t think of Rogers and Hammerstein as being particularly progressive - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - or anything like that. But in fact, they were, weren’t they?
ALASTAIR: They were, yes. Yes.
DOUG: (and)They slipped a lot of this kind of thing into their music - - -
ALASTAIR: Undoubtedly, yeah - - -
DOUG: - - - there in the Sound of Music as well, all that - - -
ALASTAIR: - - - yes - - -
DOUG: It’s shaved out of that rather saccharin-movie version?
ALASTAIR: Yes, it is.
DOUG: This was on Broadway last year, again. But this is back in the 1940s and it’s all about how prejudice is not natural, prejudice is taught. I think that’s a very, very valuable lesson so from South Pacific: “You’ve Got To Be Carefully Taught”.
[music]
DOUG: This hour we’re Digging Deeper with the former Chief Justice of the Family Court, Alastair Nicholson and we keep giving you that title. But we haven’t yet talked about the law; now, first of all what drew you to go to the Law in the first place?
ALASTAIR: In those days when I did it, it was very much an easy choice to make. You sat around and decided whether you wanted to do Law or Medicine or Arts and you got in providing you passed your Matric(sic). There was no nonsense about - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - getting scores that enabled you to get in and I thought Law sounded interesting. So, without any real family background in it, I - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - did it. So, there was no sense of dedication or anything of that sort. It was rather a dilettante’s choice, actually.
DOUG: Well, it turned out to be rather more than that - - -
ALASTAIR: As it turned out, it did.
[laughs]
ALASTAIR: I don’t regret it but I must say, I was not imbued with any particular ‘mission’ at that stage.
DOUG: So, how did you get started in Law – did you begin as a solicitor?
ALASTAIR: I did, yes. I did my Articles with a very conservative western-district firm called: Aitken Walker and Strachan. Who acted for western district squatters and insurance companies and banks and that sort of thing - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm?
ALASTAIR: - - - very nice people. The firm were very nice people in fact, the firm still exists. It’s a different sort of practice these days but I did my Articles and spent a year there as a solicitor and I was articled to a chap called John Deravin who told me that he thought I was a very talented lawyer but he thought I’d make a dreadful solicitor - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: He was right. (and)He suggested I should go to the Bar and I didn’t regret it.
DOUG: Why would you make a dreadful solicitor but a good barrister?
ALASTAIR: Well, I’m not a person who is very keen on the detail of costs and working out how things – how much we should charge people and - - -
DOUG: Ah, ha.
ALASTAIR: - - - all the intricacies of Land Titles and – m’mm, the sort of procedural stuff that solicitors have to do. I admire people who can do it but - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - it’s not my thing.
DOUG: No. ‘Cause a lot of people say that people become barristers if they can’t become actors because they like the flair, the drama.
ALASTAIR: Well, I don’t think that was true in my case. I just found it interesting – I did like the flair and I did like the drama - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - but I didn’t ever – sort of, have a theatrical - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - bent.
DOUG: What sort of cases did you take on, in the beginning?
ALASTAIR: Oh, when you started off you took on anything and lucky to get it – m’mm, mostly, they were people colliding with each other in the suburbs and small, petty criminal cases. Shoplifting, all sorts of things – in those days a lot of maintenance cases where women were suing for what would now be child support. But they had to get an Order from the Magistrates’ Court and so it was very good training. Because you sat in Magistrates’ Court, you really saw how the Law affected people. You saw people who couldn’t speak English who were being treated appallingly. You saw a very rough justice being dished-out but it was very educative.
DOUG: So, it sounds like you’ve had a passion for social justice right back there, from the beginning?
ALASTAIR: Yes, I think I did. In fact, I used to get annoyed when I sat in Court and saw what was going on. I really wanted to do something about it.
DOUG: You travelled through the legal system to the point where you ended-up as Justice of the Supreme Court of Victoria so you must have been some good at your job, I’d have thought?
ALASTAIR: I hope so, anyway.
[laughs]
ALASTAIR: I had a very interesting – sort of, a practice. It did go into more serious cases following that - - -
DOUG: Of course.
ALASTAIR: - - - and - - -
DOUG: But how did you get interested in gay and lesbian issues?
ALASTAIR: I’d have to say I was always broadly sympathetic to the view that I did not like discrimination against gays and lesbians and I couldn’t understand the background to it. The purpose of it. I did find cases when I was a barrister where – m’mm, people were defended for assaulting gay people and so on. I didn’t find much pleasure in those sorts of cases and I couldn’t really feel very happy about it. But I think the real affect hit me when I became Chief Justice of the Family Court - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
ALASTAIR: I had the great, good fortune to have as originally my Associate and worked with me all the time I was there apart for a few years, a chap called: Danny Sandor. Who was gay and proud of it, who used to – probably the best lawyer I’ve ever had any contact with - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - he was a man absolutely dedicated to children’s issues. He’d worked as a male nurse and then he’d worked in the Department – protective – Protective Services, looking after children. He came to the Court because he wanted to make a difference in relation to Family Law and our long discussions and friendship over a period of years, had a great influence on me and it’s one that he – unfortunately died about three years ago at the age of 42 which is far too young.
DOUG: Yeah.
ALASTAIR: But he was a great person and I couldn’t speak more highly of the influence he had on me, in relation to these matters – because it was a reasoning influence, it wasn’t an emotional - - -
DOUG: Yes.
ALASTAIR: - - - influence. He was able to discuss the issues with me and I found what he was putting to me unanswerable in terms of - - -
DOUG: But you’re not giving yourself enough credit there, I think because you were open to the argument - - -
ALASTAIR: Oh, very much.
DOUG: - - - to the discussion.
ALASTAIR: Very much - - -
DOUG: It’s a two-way process.
ALASTAIR: But the knowledge I didn’t have - - -
DOUG: Yes.
ALASTAIR: - - - the knowledge I think, in particular, improved a lot as a result of that relationship.
DOUG: I’ve often wondered, when you’re a Judge you have a considerable amount of power over other peoples’ lives and a considerable responsibility - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - m’mm – and yet, you often come in for a huge amount of criticism from the press for some of the decisions you make - - -
ALASTAIR: Indeed.
DOUG: The press and the public.
ALASTAIR: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: How do you handle that?
ALASTAIR: I think, probably your training does equip you to do that because as a barrister you always have to take on unpopular causes. You have to pursue them. You have to be prepared to accept criticism. You’ve got to be objective and I think objectivity’s very important in approaching - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - that task. So, I found that training really enabled me to withstand that sort of criticism. However, on occasion it was wounding and very hurtful but you have to get used to that, too. I think - - -
DOUG: M’mm. Some of the cases you took on in Family Court because Family Court is very – it must be an absolute cauldron of emotion?
ALASTAIR: It is. It is.
DOUG: Because you’re dealing with very intimate aspects of peoples’ lives, you’re dealing with issues like access to children, division of family property, all those sorts of things – have you ever, genuinely, been in a quandary for example?
ALASTAIR: Oh, yes - - -
DOUG: As to how to resolve something?
ALASTAIR: - - - oh, yes. Yes – I mean, there are - - -
DOUG: Must be able to see both sides, surely?
ALASTAIR: - - - exactly. One of the very difficult cases where you had two, perfectly decent people both of whom would look after a child very well and – m’mm, you had to decide between them - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
ALASTAIR: - - - and you felt really – the only heartening thing about those sorts of cases was that you knew whoever you gave the child to, the child would be okay and the other person would probably wear it and work it out - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
ALASTAIR: - - - properly. The worst ones are of course, the ones you thought neither were very suited - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - looking after a child and then it’s a least-worst selection which is much more difficult.
DOUG: Yeah. Because in Social Work, particularly, there’s a presumption that a child is best off with its natural parents and that’s not - - -
ALASTAIR: Not always the case.
DOUG: - - - always the case, no.
ALASTAIR: No, no. Indeed.
DOUG: Is it?
ALASTAIR: Indeed.
DOUG: (and)The wreckage I suppose, often washes up in the Family Court?
ALASTAIR: It does. It does and of course there’s often the role – there are grandparents in the ring, as well – and there are – which, thank Heavens they are in many cases - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: ‘Cause they do provide the solution to the sort of case I’m speaking about, quite often - - -
DOUG: Yeah. Well, in a moment we’ll come on to talk about some of the well-known cases - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm - - -
DOUG: - - - that you sat on, that relate to our community. There’s a couple that come to mind, there was the case of “Alex”, the young 13-year old then-girl who didn’t want to become a boy and there’s also the case of Brian and Jennifer - - -
ALASTAIR: Kevin and Jennifer.
DOUG: Kevin. Kevin and Jennifer, that’s right - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - I beg your pardon. Sorry. Kevins(sic)-and-Brians(sic) - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - my mind. Kevin and Jennifer, which we can also talk about - - -
ALASTAIR: Sure.
DOUG: In the meantime, I think it’s time we went for another piece of music – now, you’ve gone for a bit of Opera, here - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes, yes.
DOUG: - - - that’s the Puccini opera, “Gianni Schicchi” – if I can get that right, sung by Haley Westenra, O Mio Babbino Cara – oh my beloved baby - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: That’s very appropriate when we’re talking about children.
ALASTAIR: Well, I suppose it is - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
ALASTAIR: - - - yes. Yes.
DOUG: Any particular reason why you picked this one?
ALASTAIR: It’s just a – I like the subject but I also like the singer and I think it’s a great piece of work.
DOUG: Okay: “O Mio Babbino Caro”, with Haley Westenra.
[music]
DOUG: I wanted to get on to your time as Chief Justice of the Family Court and talk about some of the cases involving the GLBTI-etcetera, etcetera community. Probably the one that stirred-up to judge by the amount of stuff on the Net I found about it, the most controversy was the issue of Alex - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - can you tell us a bit about Alex?
ALASTAIR: Yes; well, Alex was a 13-year old – m’mm, a ward of the State from a troubled family background. Not troubled in his own background but a troubled family background. A very intelligent young person and very much oriented towards being a male although he was biologically a female and he’d had a very difficult time at Primary School because he’d always taken the male role. He refused to line-up with the girls, he’d always worn – where he could – male clothes, in fact, he had some of the – he was a very good cricketer. He was quite a sporting - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - person, too. But he had just a complete mindset away from being female. Of course, the problem started to develop when he came closer to puberty. The case came to me, brought by the Department who were responsible for his welfare; Alex had been looked after by a very good group of doctors, at the Children’s Hospital, on this issue. They were very anxious to try and prevent the onset of menstruation and puberty. Because they felt that this would be so destructive to him, that he would – that he was a risk of suicide and there was a real risk of his life. So, the application was brought to the Court to permit the administration of drugs which would prevent menstruation and reduce the developments that take place with puberty so it wouldn’t be noticeable. It had a certain urgency about it because coupled with this was the desire by him to become a boy - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
ALASTAIR: - - - and to go to High School, as a boy. This was in his year prior to going to High School so, that’s the background.
DOUG: Right. The Court was involved because Alex was a ward of the State, yeah?
ALASTAIR: That and because, when medical treatment goes beyond the ‘normal’ medical treatment, this was seen to be more in the area of elective medical treatment and there’s a shadowy area which is not quite clear so a lot of applications tend to be made to the Court, for approval of these sorts of procedures where the doctors and nurses concerned are not quite sure about their rights. This case, of course, there were no parents to consent but even when there are, that’s not always straightforward.
DOUG: No. So, you decided in this particular case that you would permit the administration of these drugs - - -
ALASTAIR: I did.
DOUG: - - - these hormones - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: Which would in effect, halt puberty?
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: How did the parents of the child feel about that?
ALASTAIR: The father was dead - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm?
ALASTAIR: - - - the mother had abandoned the child so - - -
DOUG: Right. So, they didn’t come into the - - -
ALASTAIR: But there was an Aunt.
DOUG: - - - m’mm, m’mm.
ALASTAIR: She was very much in favour of the treatment.
DOUG: Right.
ALASTAIR: (and)There was also a Priest who strangely enough – not ‘strangely’ enough – but unusually, I think - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - took a strong view that it ought to take place, as well. The boy was quite a devout Catholic as was the Aunt. There was strong, family support and religious support for it - - -
DOUG: Right. That didn’t stop an absolute – if you pardon my expression, shit storm - - -
ALASTAIR: Oh - - -
DOUG: - - - after you’d made the decision.
ALASTAIR: Absolutely. Because some people would prefer to not bother with the facts of the case and prefer to pontificate as I think, Andrew Bolt in particular did on that occasion.
DOUG: He can always be relied upon to pontificate.
ALASTAIR: Yes, that’s true.
[laughs]
ALASTAIR: But in any event, it was – I also I may say, didn’t just rely on medical people in Victoria - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm?
ALASTAIR: I took evidence from a doctor in London who specialised in the area as well who I met later and he told me he gave evidence in his pyjamas, sitting at his desk at some un-Godly hour in the morning. But [laughs] in any event, we took evidence from overseas experts as well. The evidence was all one way. It wasn’t a difficult decision to make in that sense. It was difficult to articulate because it was necessary to explain why I was doing it - - -
DOUG: Yes.
ALASTAIR: - - - and of course, I knew that once it hit the deck it would - - -
DOUG: Indeed.
ALASTAIR: It would cause problems.
DOUG: This was all some years ago now – this was, what? 2004 - - -
ALASTAIR: Yeah, 2003 I think.
DOUG: 2003, 2004 - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - do we know how Alex is doing now?
ALASTAIR: Yes – when I say “yes” I know that my successor – he’s 17, I think – 17, 18. He must be 18 now – but before he turned 18 my successor approved an operation involving a mastectomy - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
ALASTAIR: - - - and following-on along the same line that I had decided and that again, caused some uproar. I met the Principal of the school he went to and he told me he was getting on extremely well. Very natural, behaved like any other boy. He was – got into trouble, he also progressed well and so, so-far-as I know - - -
DOUG: So far as we’re aware, it turns out to be much the right decision?
ALASTAIR: Pretty well. Yeah, m’mm.
DOUG: Which rather puts a lie to a lot of the stuff that people like Andrew Bolt had been writing on the subject, over the years - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes – I mean, you can’t help but feel nervous about these cases - - -
DOUG: - - - well, of course. But you were actually there, you reviewed the evidence, you talked to the experts – you knew the people involved – m’mm, an awful lot of people who didn’t know anything about the case - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: - - - had very strong opinions in the other direction.
ALASTAIR: Yes.
DOUG: That must be one of the hardest things to deal with as a Judge, whatever the case is about?
ALASTAIR: Oh, yes it is. It is.
DOUG: Other people are trying to second-guess you, who do not have - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - the information and knowledge that you do – you know, that you’re not trusted, almost - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes. Well, the media like to set themselves up as “Judge” so that I think, is part of the problem - - -
DOUG: [laughs] Yes but they’re not the judge.
ALASTAIR: - - - yes.
DOUG: They’re not the judge, they’re just the commentator; okay – m’mm, we’ll come back in a moment and we’ll talk about Kevin and Jennifer which is a different kind of case, altogether - - -
ALASTAIR: M’mm, sure.
DOUG: In the meantime, we’ll have a little more Pavarotti. Yes. Well, what can you say about Pavarotti?
ALASTAIR: You can’t.
[laughs]
ALASTAIR: He’s just always worth listening to, that’s - - -
DOUG: He is, indeed and any particular reason why you’ve chosen this song?
ALASTAIR: It was a lighter song but – m’mm – and a well known one but one I quite enjoy.
DOUG: I know it from my childhood because I seem to have a raft of Aunts, all who’ve had this tune on their music boxes - - -
ALASTAIR: Yes, it’s a very old-fashioned tune.
DOUG: - - - by Pavarotti.
[music]
