Doug PollardTranscript - Gay Dads
DOUG: I was contacted by a certain organization – Drummond Street Services, telling me all about a gay dads’ conference coming up and I said: ‘okay, that’d be great – we’d love to have a spokesperson come along and talk about that’. I’ve ended up with two gay dads and a couple of kids here, in the studio – so, welcome to Wayne Elliot and to James Christoffelz. If I can start with you, Wayne - - -
WAYNE: Sure.
DOUG: - - - now, you are a dad because you have children from a previous straight relationship?
WAYNE: That’s correct.
WAYNE: Yes.
DOUG: Whereas you, James, you have kids via surrogacy and co-parenting?
JAMES: That’s right – yeah, thanks. Yeah.
DOUG: Which is the modern gay family - - -
JAMES: Yeah - - -
DOUG: If I can put it that way?
JAMES: - - - yeah, yeah.
DOUG: The new-style gay family.
JAMES: The only thing I knew about at the time, anyway, so - - -
DOUG: Yeah; well, thank you very much for joining us today – m’mm, I’d like to start with you James, tell us a little about your story about how you came to be a parent – I mean, did you always want to be a parent?
JAMES: Yeah – I mean, coming out as a gay man meant I suppose, initially, realizing my dream of fatherhood wasn’t possible and I remember hearing this thing: Maybe Baby. Which was – m’mm - - -
DOUG: Oh, I remember that.
JAMES: - - - yeah; meeting – kind of, we went to look at the possibility of a rainbow family and I just remember that night thinking ‘how amazing’ and so, my partner and I went along and we had a child through a co-parenting arrangement which is amazing and fabulous – and we love him to bits but – m’mm, you know – we realized that through that journey we wanted to be full-time carers and have a bit more accountability and responsibility on a day-to-day basis.
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
JAMES: So, we went down the surrogacy path and had two children, Remy and India. Yeah – so - - -
DOUG: Who are here with us this morning - - -
JAMES: - - - yeah – and I’ve got the chocolate to bribe them, I’m just hoping they - - -
DOUG: India’s looking kind of dubious about the whole thing at the moment - - -
JAMES: Oh, yes. Just wait ‘til she erupts, that’s - - -
DOUG: So, if you hear a bit of disruption that’s what you get when you get kids around the place.
JAMES: Well, that’s right. I thought ‘let’s do the experiential conversation’ here – so - - -
DOUG: It wouldn’t be the first time in this studio, believe me - - -
JAMES: - - - yeah.
DOUG: It wouldn’t be. So, how was that journey with surrogacy – I mean, a lot of people are uncomfortable about the idea of surrogacy aren’t they?
JAMES: Sure – I mean, a lot of people are uncomfortable about lots of things, you know?
DOUG: M’mm.
JAMES: But, ultimately, it was important for us – m’mm, anyone that has children and is a gay father doesn’t do it easy – you know, there’s – surrogacy, emotional – financial – co-parenting, it’s hard enough to actually co-parent within a relationship let alone with someone you don’t have a(sic) intimate relationship with - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
JAMES: - - - as a partner.
DOUG: M’mm.
JAMES: So, it’s tough going – so, the journey’s not been easy. I mean, it’s easy to sit here and talk about ‘here, I’ve got these kids afterwards’ but we’ve been in the Family Court. We’ve had to sell things to afford surrogacy and it’s been – it’s been a tough road so - - -
DOUG: Which gives the lie to a lot of the nonsense that’s talked about gay parenting, it is important to stress that particularly in situations like yours all gay children are very much wanted and very much planned for.
JAMES: Oh, for sure. Yeah.
DOUG: This is no casual, off-the-cuff decision by any means.
JAMES: No, no. No, this is – m’mm, something that’s well thought through. Yeah.
DOUG: Yes; now, Wayne – you came to parenting by the, if you might call it, the convention route?
WAYNE: That’s correct, yes. The normal way, as they say - - -
DOUG: So, were you married before?
WAYNE: Yes, I was. I was married for nine years before I came out. I came out four years ago and I’ve got three children – ten, eight and five. Three boys, as a matter of fact; so, yeah – I came through the as you can say, the conventional method of having children.
DOUG: But obviously, you are – are you still co-parenting with your ex-wife or - - -
WAYNE: Yes, I am. I have them every second-weekend and - - -
DOUG: Do you have a partner as well?
WAYNE: I do, actually. I have a partner of 12-months, he’s an amazing guy and I’ve learnt so much from him. As how to be a better parent for my own kids – so, yeah – I’m really pleased that he’s in my life.
DOUG: That must be difficult, we talked before with James about co-parenting. Is that difficult or is it easy because you’re getting on well with your ex-wife?
WAYNE: Fortunately, in my situation the relationship that I have with my ex-wife is amicable(sic) so, it’s a – sort of, a situation where if we do differ on opinions it’s hard because she’s – m’mm, obviously, as a heterosexual person - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
WAYNE: - - - she may not have an understanding of a gay person’s way of how they want to raise their children, how they want to be in a family unit.
DOUG: Sure.
WAYNE: So – m’mm, there obviously are relationships out there that do work but in my case it didn’t work because I was – being in a marriage, I was a person [indistinct] came out I was seen as a completely different person. So, it made it a bit harder I believe.
DOUG: Yeah – but you have worked through that and you have an amicable relationship - - -
WAYEN: Yes, we have worked through it and we have got an amicable relationship.
DOUG: Well, that’s good.
WAYNE: Yes.
DOUG: That’s good; we were talking to Felicity Marlowe a few moments ago and she’s just started-up a campaign to get the adoption laws changed, James, how is(sic) the lack of adoption law impacted you and getting a family together?
JAMES: Well – I mean, Felicity and Rainbow Families have done such an amazing job. They’ve made brilliant changes and – m’mm, I actually work in this field as well, of family law and the actual changes that have been made have made great outcomes for men that have children via surrogacy, in Melbourne for lesbian couples if they’re together at the point of conception.
However, for gay men that are the co-parents or in surrogacy situations we are still not recognized as parents at law. We can actually get parenting orders but if the method of conception was through artificial methods then – I’m not a parent to either of my children, even though I’ve got parenting orders the law does not recognise me as a parent and there are certain presumptions that are in place when you are recognised as a parent.
DOUG: Yeah. So, that’s why we need this campaign?
JAMES: Well, the adoption campaign is one route. We’re also looking at launching a campaign through the Conference as well, about: My Child Calls Me A Parent Why Doesn’t The Law? So, we’re actually looking at talking to – m’mm, a couple of lawyers and that path’s underway and we’re trying to look at strategies such as a class action to get the Family Court to recognise us parents. Because what else are we, you know - - -
DOUG: Indeed, indeed; what I wanted to get onto now is the up-coming: “2010 National Gay Dads’ Conference, A Celebration Of Gay Fatherhood”, coming up on the 18th and 19-September at Richmond Town Hall. It’s run by Drummond Street Services – under the auspices, I should say, of Drummond Street Services. So, who should come along to this conference, Wayne?
WAYNE: All sorts of gay dads. Gay dads in the sense of my situation, that have been in a straight relationship and now they’ve come out and they’ve got children. Also, gay dads in the respect of surrogacy and co-parenting, as in James’ situation – also, gay dads with fostering and adoption; one thing that we do want to point out is that we also are wanting guys that have yet to become fathers that are interesting in becoming fathers. We want them to come along and learn about – m’mm, the availabilities and the options that they have to become gay dads. So, we really need to get those sort(sic) of guys to come along and come to the Conference and learn – and talk – and share.
DOUG: This is something that I think there’s a lot of men out there are thinking about but it’s – like, taking that first step across the threshold isn’t it – James, if people are interesting in just finding out a little bit about this before they go to the Conference are there websites and things they can look at, is there a group they can join and come along to?
JAMES: Yeah – I mean, we have the Meeting Place and GloKids – m’mm, Wayne and I came together through really wanting – the Meeting Place was a group that I set up with Drummond Street Services, they offered us the space and it’s a face-to-face group for any type of gay fatherhood and Barry and I co-facilitate that – and Barry’s a co-parent and we realised that we didn’t have any representation from guys from straight relationships or fostering - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
JAMES: - - - so, that’s a place that can – although, having said that we had our last one last week – or the week before, actually. So – yeah, I mean, the best place to come to for information is to give either Wayne or I a call. If people are thinking about it; I think, what we’ve seen with the Meeting Place is that people sometimes think – they pluck up the courage to come and they really enjoy it and we have an informal dinner afterward and they love the whole experience. But I can sense when they first come along that they’re a bit scared, you know?
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
JAMES: It’s a tough thing to come to a group and feel comfortable. I have a lot of respect for guys that make that change and effort. So – yeah - - -
DOUG: Yeah – and presumably, there are places on the Web they can look for information, too?
JAMES: Through Drummond Street - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
JAMES: Drummond Street, the website actually has the whole national conference on it. I think, Gay Dads’ Australia actually has some information on it, as well. The other website is the Meeting Place website that is in formation at this point and GloKids as well, of course – GloKids has got it as well – Wayne’s much better at this than I am. Wayne’s the website guru - - -
DOUG: Okay. There’s(sic) all those things you can Google - - -
JAMES: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - and before these guys go, I’ll get them to give me all these web addresses and also, contact ‘phone numbers and I will put them on the programme blog - - -
JAMES: Yeah.
DOUG: Which is: currentaffairs.net.au and you can look them up and contact them, that way – I think that’s probably the best way to do it - - -
JAMES: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - rather than read out a whole load of web addresses and things. If people don’t happen to be anywhere where they could write things down, at the moment – like, in the car or whatever. Now, you both mentioned something about forming a new group to lobby for gay dads?
JAMES: Yeah, not so much a new group; I mean, really, we want to work with the Human Rights Commission and Rainbow Families as well. But it’s actually a campaign where we’re looking to get the law to recognise us as parents. So, that campaign is: “My Child Calls Me A Parent Why Doesn’t The Law” so, the Conference is also a chance to discuss it, get ideas, form strategies and then continue the working party. Which is formed and had a couple of sessions and progressed the issues paper, as well; but – m’mm, it needs a lot more work and needs people to come along and have hands and legs to get this campaign going – so, yeah.
DOUG: You’ve always got to have bodies on the ground.
JAMES: Yeah.
DOUG: Before any of this is going to work. These issues have not really played very much of a role in the current election have they, it’s been a bit of a back-burner thing. Do you think that politicians have been running scared of this whole issue because some of them will come at gay marriage and then they get to that point and they say ‘but not adoption’ or ‘but not parenting’ – this seems to be like the next hurdle that a lot of them are hitting?
JAMES: I think they thought that they had actually fixed it, really. I think a lot of – my feedback through some of the legal channels as well, was there was a bit of surprise with the 87 or 78 law changes - - -
DOUG: Yeah, assisted reproduction technology stuff and - - -
JAMES: Yeah. All of that and - - -
DOUG: Plus, the 85 changes - - -
JAMES: They thought they’d got it. They thought they’d fixed it but the reality was gay men who are parents are still not recognised at law – in Family Law.
DOUG: There’s a lot of gaps that that 85 have left. They’ve only addressed things for gay couples, for one thing – and it didn’t cover discrimination law, it didn’t cover a whole load of things.
JAMES: Yeah.
DOUG: Wasn’t particularly useful for trans and inter-sex people for example. There’s a whole load of gaps in it but parenting, seems to be one of those things where some people who are relatively liberal on the subject of recognising gay relationships or gay marriage, suddenly go m’mm when they hit the parenting wall - - -
JAMES: Yeah. Particularly two men
DOUG: Yes.
JAMES: Without a mum. Is very sensitive, yeah.
DOUG: How can you counter that – aside from just visibility?
JAMES: Well, I think it’s about momentum, critical mass – it’s about making small changes and I think the faster path is possibly through precedent rather than legislative change - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
JAMES: I’m not discounting the need for legislative change. But I think having the real situation in front of people that are making decisions, to actually make the decision: tell me that I’m not a parent - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
JAMES: In the Family Law Court.
DOUG: Well, this is one thing that Felicity brought up when I was talking to her earlier, about the campaign to change the law here, in Victoria. She was saying one of the most effective campaigning tools they had to make changes to the Assisted Reproductive Technology Act was actually putting gay families in front of MPs - - -
JAMES: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - whether it was in the form of them telling their stories and putting up photographs on the web and so on – or actually, turning up to MPs’ offices and having meetings with them – and hearing their stories face-to-face. That’s really what you need to do.
JAMES: Yeah - - -
DOUG: Isn’t it?
JAMES: - - - yeah.
DOUG: You need to get out there and you need to be – you know, instead of being just an idea you’re actual, real people.
JAMES: (and) The Conference is a national conference, too. That was the whole idea behind that so that we could - - -
[baby cries]
JAMES: - - - get – sorry, that’s a real experience; m’mm, that men all across Australia connecting, engaging in this sort of campaign. But also just the celebration of gay fatherhood, as well. I don’t want to - - -
DOUG: It’s not all about dreary law and all that.
JAMES: - - - no, there’s going to be experts in the field from Family Law – also experts in education and raising children, psychologists – so, it’s not just about the legal change. It’s about how we do this thing called “fatherhood”, so - - -
DOUG: A lot of straight men haven’t got that one worked out, either.
JAMES: No, I know. Perhaps we could lead the way?
DOUG: Well, dear-oh-lord, that’s the 2010 National Gay Dads’ Conference – a celebration of gay fatherhood, 18th and 19-September at Richmond Town Hall Services. It’s being facilitated by the Drummond Street Services and supported by DNA, Joy 94.9 and Step Families Australia. Joy 94.9 is very proud to be associated with that conference; well, thank you guys for coming in today and good luck with it. Please, when the Conference actually happens maybe come back and talk with us again and maybe, tell us how it went – and keep us informed as to how things go with your legal and other changes?
JAMES: Fantastic, Doug - - -
WAYNE: Thank you.
JAMES: - - - thanks for all your support, Joy, as well – and you, Doug.
DOUG: You’re very welcome.
.
