Doug PollardTranscript: drugging mothers so their babies won't be lesbians
DOUG: We’re very fond of bandying around the acronym: G-L-B-T-I. But what does the “I” stand for and do we really understand and do we really cover the issue, particularly – I’ve been looking up, on line, as to what is intersex and it says – and I quote: “Intersex people are people who as individuals, have genetic, hormonal and physical features that may be thought to be typical of both male and female, at the same time that is, may be thought of as being male with female features, female with male features or indeed may have no clearly defined sexual features at all”. Trans people often complain they get left behind in the GLBTI, intersex people get left even further behind. So, I thought we would talk to someone from the Organisation of Intersex International Australia branch – Gina and she joins me on the line now, good morning, Gina.
GINA: Good morning, Doug. How are you?
DOUG: I’m very well, thank you. Now, we’ve heard quite a bit about gay rights improving over the last year or so but intersex people tend to have been left out of the equation altogether?
GINA: Yes. Yeah, we tend to be left behind. Most people are – don’t understand what intersex is and like you say, they tack it on the end of the acronym without really looking into it.
DOUG: Has there been any response from any of the political parties to any of the issues that relate to intersex people?
GINA: Well, there has Doug. The “Australian Coalition for Equality”, put out a questionnaire and intersex was included in that questionnaire – m’mm, the political parties – the two major parties, are inclined to respond to the “I” as GLBTI just including “I” as a normal part of the acronym but a couple of the parties have specific, intersex policies. Particularly the Social Alliance and the Socialist Alternative and the Greens and the Greens have indicated to us they want to have further talks after the election, to have a more inclusive policy.
DOUG: Well, that’s some good news, anyway.
GINA: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
DOUG: Now, one of the things I know you’ve been raising for some time now is the question of – and I don’t – I’m trying to be careful here, with my terminology; genital “corrective” surgery for intersex children, can you explain what that’s about?
GINA: Right – so, one of the ways that we come to know that we’re intersex is when we’re so different at the time of our birth – you know, it’s fairly obvious that an intersex child has been born. Now, there’s a fairly strong homophobic reaction and a lot of parents might(sic) think they’re not homophobic but what they’re attempting to do is in fact, homophobic – and that is, what they want their child to be is normal. Normal generally means a penetrator or a penetratee(sic) in a hetero-normative, sexual relationship - - -
DOUG: Right.
GINA: So, if the child is assigned and goes on to live in what might be seen as a homosexual relationship that’s generally considered a failure of assignment.
DOUG: When you talk about assignment, what do you mean by assignment?
GINA: So, the reason that they do surgery is so that they can be sure the child is a male or a female.
DOUG: Okay; so, they do genital surgery in order to – m’mm, create more female-like – or more masculine-type of genitalia?
GINA: Yes. Or another way of looking at it, is to erase the intersex, erase the ambiguity.
DOUG: Right. Okay - - -
GINA: Yes.
DOUG: - - - and so the whole idea is ‘okay, we’ll decide this one is going to be a boy he will therefore be referred to as he and be raised as a boy - - -’
GINA: Correct.
DOUG: Now, this is where it gets a little bit confusing, this business between sex and gender. Because we do not know what gender this person is going to be, do we?
GINA: No, we don’t – so, what they do is if the sex is unknown – that’s why they do the surgery, they’re trying to predict the gender that is, the sex role that the child will go on, to live in - - -
DOUG: Right.
GINA: - - - and they claim that they are seldom mistaken. But our experience is they are very often mistaken and research from the United Kingdom suggests that if you leave the child un-surgically altered they’ll go on to have a life that’s as good as if not better, than the life of a child that is surgically altered goes on to have. So, the surgery is not a fix at the time of birth. The surgery creates scar tissue, scar tissue doesn’t grow so there will be more corrective surgery – if, for instance the child has a small – what they consider, a small vagina and they do a vaginal enlargement that child right from the time of surgery will have to be dilated. That is, to have a stent inserted into the vagina - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
GINA: - - - to keep it open. This is a tiny child that you’re talking about doing this stuff to.
DOUG: Yeah. So, what is it that you would like to see happen?
GINA: We would like to see children left as they are and to have the right to determine – decide, for themselves(sic) and to make a fully informed decision. A fully informed decision includes more information than the doctors give and that is to meet other intersex adults to find out about intersex and to know it’s all right to be intersex. An intersex life is perfectly adequate and any surgery reduces sensation. So, for them to - - -
DOUG: Right.
GINA: - - - in their life where they can explore their sex and sexuality – and make a decision on that basis - - -
DOUG: So, basically this is somewhat analogous to female sexual mutilation in that sense, isn’t it?
GINA: Yes, it is. Yes. So, we are allied with people who stand against genital mutilation including non-consensual circumcisions, non-consensual female genital mutilations. Now, if people want to have circumcisions we think they should be allowed to but we think that should be on the basis of them making that choice, themselves. Not on the basis of parents making it for them. They might say it’s easier to do it when it’s a little child because they don’t feel the pain and we would dispute that – and they heal quicker and that’s probably true but none-the-less, that child might grow up to want to have that foreskin replaced. Or the female will certainly grow up to have no sexual sensation if her clitoris is completely removed as it is in some countries. (and)Even if it’s nicked, all surgery reduces sensation.
DOUG: Yeah; now, last week we heard about a drug treatment called: dexamethasone?
GINA: Yes, dexamethasone. It’s a mineralocorticoid which is used for all sorts of things. There’s(sic) all sorts of illnesses and that - - -
DOUG: Okay – but this is being given to mothers who are carrying babies – is that right?
GINA: Right. So, there’s a – one way to be intersex is to have a difference called: “Congenital adrenal hyperplasia” and that’s a difference in the adrenal gland where the adrenal gland doesn’t produce some hormones and over-produces testosterone which can lead to androgenisation of a fetus that is, the fetus is more male-like.
DOUG: Right, even though the fetus may be female it gets an excess of testosterone?
GINA: Well, there Doug I would dispute - - -
DOUG: Well – I mean, an “excess - - -”
GINA: Yes.
DOUG: - - - in inverted commas.
GINA: Yeah – and we don’t know if the fetus, just because it’s excess we don’t know that the child is female or male. In fact, the child’s probably intersex - - -
DOUG: Right. (and)They’re giving this drug to the mother to stop this additional testosterone being produced?
GINA: Well, yes. To combat the extra testosterone being produced - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
GINA: - - - to stop the child’s genitals from being ambiguous and specifically, to stop the child growing up with a homosexual ideation.
DOUG: [laughs] This is very – I don’t like the sound of that at all - - -
GINA: No. It’s a bit of social engineering. What they do is they give this drug to women who are thought to be carrying a CAH child now that child might not be in fact, CAH so they give it irrespective of whether they know that the child’s going to be CAH or not. The terror of this is that drug has been shown by CSIRO tests to actually reduce mental capacity. So, the choice they’re making is between mental capacity and homosexuality – and that’s a terrifying thing.
DOUG: That is a horrible thing. Look, Gina – I know we could talk about this all morning, we don’t have any more time to go into this any further but the best of luck to you, trying to combat this. I’m glad you’ve managed to get it on the agenda, at least, with the Greens and hopefully it will get raised in parliament the next time – Gina, thanks very much for joining us this morning.
GINA: (and)Thanks for your support, Doug.
DOUG: You’re welcome. That was Gina from Organisation Intersex International – I find that horrible, the notion of feeding mothers drugs so their babies won’t be lesbians or whatever. Never-mind what it does to the genitalia, and diminishing their mental capacity!
GINA: Good morning, Doug. How are you?
DOUG: I’m very well, thank you. Now, we’ve heard quite a bit about gay rights improving over the last year or so but intersex people tend to have been left out of the equation altogether?
GINA: Yes. Yeah, we tend to be left behind. Most people are – don’t understand what intersex is and like you say, they tack it on the end of the acronym without really looking into it.
DOUG: Has there been any response from any of the political parties to any of the issues that relate to intersex people?
GINA: Well, there has Doug. The “Australian Coalition for Equality”, put out a questionnaire and intersex was included in that questionnaire – m’mm, the political parties – the two major parties, are inclined to respond to the “I” as GLBTI just including “I” as a normal part of the acronym but a couple of the parties have specific, intersex policies. Particularly the Social Alliance and the Socialist Alternative and the Greens and the Greens have indicated to us they want to have further talks after the election, to have a more inclusive policy.
DOUG: Well, that’s some good news, anyway.
GINA: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
DOUG: Now, one of the things I know you’ve been raising for some time now is the question of – and I don’t – I’m trying to be careful here, with my terminology; genital “corrective” surgery for intersex children, can you explain what that’s about?
GINA: Right – so, one of the ways that we come to know that we’re intersex is when we’re so different at the time of our birth – you know, it’s fairly obvious that an intersex child has been born. Now, there’s a fairly strong homophobic reaction and a lot of parents might(sic) think they’re not homophobic but what they’re attempting to do is in fact, homophobic – and that is, what they want their child to be is normal. Normal generally means a penetrator or a penetratee(sic) in a hetero-normative, sexual relationship - - -
DOUG: Right.
GINA: So, if the child is assigned and goes on to live in what might be seen as a homosexual relationship that’s generally considered a failure of assignment.
DOUG: When you talk about assignment, what do you mean by assignment?
GINA: So, the reason that they do surgery is so that they can be sure the child is a male or a female.
DOUG: Okay; so, they do genital surgery in order to – m’mm, create more female-like – or more masculine-type of genitalia?
GINA: Yes. Or another way of looking at it, is to erase the intersex, erase the ambiguity.
DOUG: Right. Okay - - -
GINA: Yes.
DOUG: - - - and so the whole idea is ‘okay, we’ll decide this one is going to be a boy he will therefore be referred to as he and be raised as a boy - - -’
GINA: Correct.
DOUG: Now, this is where it gets a little bit confusing, this business between sex and gender. Because we do not know what gender this person is going to be, do we?
GINA: No, we don’t – so, what they do is if the sex is unknown – that’s why they do the surgery, they’re trying to predict the gender that is, the sex role that the child will go on, to live in - - -
DOUG: Right.
GINA: - - - and they claim that they are seldom mistaken. But our experience is they are very often mistaken and research from the United Kingdom suggests that if you leave the child un-surgically altered they’ll go on to have a life that’s as good as if not better, than the life of a child that is surgically altered goes on to have. So, the surgery is not a fix at the time of birth. The surgery creates scar tissue, scar tissue doesn’t grow so there will be more corrective surgery – if, for instance the child has a small – what they consider, a small vagina and they do a vaginal enlargement that child right from the time of surgery will have to be dilated. That is, to have a stent inserted into the vagina - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
GINA: - - - to keep it open. This is a tiny child that you’re talking about doing this stuff to.
DOUG: Yeah. So, what is it that you would like to see happen?
GINA: We would like to see children left as they are and to have the right to determine – decide, for themselves(sic) and to make a fully informed decision. A fully informed decision includes more information than the doctors give and that is to meet other intersex adults to find out about intersex and to know it’s all right to be intersex. An intersex life is perfectly adequate and any surgery reduces sensation. So, for them to - - -
DOUG: Right.
GINA: - - - in their life where they can explore their sex and sexuality – and make a decision on that basis - - -
DOUG: So, basically this is somewhat analogous to female sexual mutilation in that sense, isn’t it?
GINA: Yes, it is. Yes. So, we are allied with people who stand against genital mutilation including non-consensual circumcisions, non-consensual female genital mutilations. Now, if people want to have circumcisions we think they should be allowed to but we think that should be on the basis of them making that choice, themselves. Not on the basis of parents making it for them. They might say it’s easier to do it when it’s a little child because they don’t feel the pain and we would dispute that – and they heal quicker and that’s probably true but none-the-less, that child might grow up to want to have that foreskin replaced. Or the female will certainly grow up to have no sexual sensation if her clitoris is completely removed as it is in some countries. (and)Even if it’s nicked, all surgery reduces sensation.
DOUG: Yeah; now, last week we heard about a drug treatment called: dexamethasone?
GINA: Yes, dexamethasone. It’s a mineralocorticoid which is used for all sorts of things. There’s(sic) all sorts of illnesses and that - - -
DOUG: Okay – but this is being given to mothers who are carrying babies – is that right?
GINA: Right. So, there’s a – one way to be intersex is to have a difference called: “Congenital adrenal hyperplasia” and that’s a difference in the adrenal gland where the adrenal gland doesn’t produce some hormones and over-produces testosterone which can lead to androgenisation of a fetus that is, the fetus is more male-like.
DOUG: Right, even though the fetus may be female it gets an excess of testosterone?
GINA: Well, there Doug I would dispute - - -
DOUG: Well – I mean, an “excess - - -”
GINA: Yes.
DOUG: - - - in inverted commas.
GINA: Yeah – and we don’t know if the fetus, just because it’s excess we don’t know that the child is female or male. In fact, the child’s probably intersex - - -
DOUG: Right. (and)They’re giving this drug to the mother to stop this additional testosterone being produced?
GINA: Well, yes. To combat the extra testosterone being produced - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
GINA: - - - to stop the child’s genitals from being ambiguous and specifically, to stop the child growing up with a homosexual ideation.
DOUG: [laughs] This is very – I don’t like the sound of that at all - - -
GINA: No. It’s a bit of social engineering. What they do is they give this drug to women who are thought to be carrying a CAH child now that child might not be in fact, CAH so they give it irrespective of whether they know that the child’s going to be CAH or not. The terror of this is that drug has been shown by CSIRO tests to actually reduce mental capacity. So, the choice they’re making is between mental capacity and homosexuality – and that’s a terrifying thing.
DOUG: That is a horrible thing. Look, Gina – I know we could talk about this all morning, we don’t have any more time to go into this any further but the best of luck to you, trying to combat this. I’m glad you’ve managed to get it on the agenda, at least, with the Greens and hopefully it will get raised in parliament the next time – Gina, thanks very much for joining us this morning.
GINA: (and)Thanks for your support, Doug.
DOUG: You’re welcome. That was Gina from Organisation Intersex International – I find that horrible, the notion of feeding mothers drugs so their babies won’t be lesbians or whatever. Never-mind what it does to the genitalia, and diminishing their mental capacity!
