Doug PollardTranscript - Daniel Witthaus in Broken Hill
DOUG: As usual at this time of the day we’re going to head off and find out what Daniel Witthaus has been up to and his stories from his tour around rural and regional Australia. Daniel’s on the line now, good morning Daniel.
DANIEL: Good morning, Doug.
DOUG: Well, where are you at the moment?
DANIEL: I’ve been spending some time in Broken Hill, one of the last posts of the Outback.
DOUG: [laughs] (and)Heading back into civilisation, now?
DANIEL: Absolutely. I may or may not have snuck over the Victoria(sic) border.
DOUG: All right, we’ll keep an eye out for you. We’ve got the patrols out you know - - -
DANIEL: [laughs]
DOUG: - - - looking at your blog just now. That’s a rather interesting headline you’ve got there: Snail Penis, self-discrimination and Priscilla.
[laughs]
DANIEL: It was an interesting week, I can tell you.
DOUG: Can we start in reverse with Priscilla, how does this get into the act?
DANIEL: Yeah. I got into Broken Hill and I think one of the things that people associate with Broken Hill is this shot of three drag queens getting off the bus in the movie of the same name - - -
DOUG: Oh, that was there was it?
DANIEL: Absolutely, in Argent Street. Before they went into one of the iconic pubs there that I had a couple of drinks in - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - what happened was I was talking to a young man in Broome. He was 11-years old when he was in Broken Hill with his mother, sitting in the car. She goes: jeez, what’s that?
DOUG: Yeah?
DANIEL: Then they both looked over and there are three drag queens who are walking - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - down the street. He actually saw the moment they were shooting that shot - - -
DOUG: Ah, ha.
DANIEL: It’s thought to believe(sic) they were actually shooting that live and they weren’t using extras. They wanted to get the real reactions.
DOUG: All right – and this turned out to be a formative experience for him by the sounds of things?
DANIEL: Absolutely. He remembered that, yeah – yeah, yeah.
DOUG: So what did you go on to do from there?
DANIEL: Since then I went on to – m’mm, have a chat to some of the local teachers in the area including some teachers – like, in a remote, community school. As well as talking to some of the local – I guess, famous, gay people in town.
DOUG: Famous; who’s famous?
DANIEL: Famous in that possibly your listeners may have heard of them - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - spoke to arguably Australia’s most famous photographer who’s moved back home to have a look at Australian photography and try and do his own series of work. I had a drink in the pub that is the “Palace” in Priscilla. Featured in that, where the famous drink-off scene is done. Also spoke to Pro Hart’s son so, anyone who knows anything about spaghetti, eggs and red wine being thrown on carpet - - -
DOUG: I – yes.
DANIEL: - - - pretty much where he’s from.
DOUG: Ah, ha; yeah, I read about Robin. He went over to New York and made a success of himself.
DANIEL: Absolutely. He went over to New York and he swore he would never come back to Broken Hill. He got to New York and he got out the White Pages and he harassed every, single photographer in town and worked for as many people as he could, for free – he was – he won an award for his photography when he was quite young - - -
DOUG: Yeah?
DANIEL: - - - his goal was to work for Annie Lieberwitz. He got back to Australia and was quite dispirited ‘cause he missed out on the chance and they(sic) said: there’s a position coming-up with Annie, do you want to come over for an interview? He sold everything he had and he went over to New York on a chance that he might be able to work with Annie Lieberwitz and off he went and he hasn’t looked back since.
DOUG: So, why did he come back?
DANIEL: He came back for a lot of reasons, he moved back ‘cause he wanted to be with his family. He’s got his father who’s not doing so well and it’s a story I’ve found, a lot of people will say: I’ll never go back to that place, where I grew-up in regional, rural Australia – and – you know, for various reasons and that softens over time and Robin’s gone back for some family reasons and also some personal stuff. He really wants to capture Broken Hill and an Australianness he feels is out there. He sees it as a temporary stop but I think he’s been pleasantly and overwhelmingly surprised by what he’s found now that he’s back at home.
DOUG: Yeah. This is an on-going theme, isn’t it – but I mean, is this due to the fact that Broken Hill is not what it was, mines have closed, people have moved away, it’s not as red-neck a town as it used to be?
DANIEL: M’mm, certainly if you talk to people that’s certainly a factor so, certainly, the mines have closed down. They say lots of red-necks have moved away. But I think it’s even more than that and I was talking to some people who said: what you have to understand is that there’s no reason for people to be in Broken Hill – or as it has been in the past. So, people were there ‘cause of the mines and when the mines closed down a lot of people had to decide: are we going to stay here – or – ‘are we going to move on’. A lot of people in the town are staying there ‘cause they want to be there. I’m not saying that – you know – like, everyone can up and move at the drop of a hat; a lot of people have said: we love this place, we want to be here. ‘We don’t care that the mines aren’t here’, ‘we’re going to try and make it work’ and so, the population there is quite different and they look at each other differently than if – you know, ‘we’ve got to be here and we’ve got to get along’. But I think the other thing which people don’t necessarily – you know, m’mm – think about is that – you know, Robin went away for 20-years. He went away to New York and this amazing experience, he worked in Sydney, he – you know, he’s done all of these amazing things and he’ll(sic) come back to Broken Hill a completely different person. When he left when he was 20-years of age he hated it and he hated his existence. He came back and he had some choice and some options in that and so, therefore, he’s changed and Broken Hill has changed as well.
DOUG: I often like to say to people because I’m from the UK and people say: aren’t you ever tempted to go back? I’m always saying ‘well, you can’t’. Because the place you left isn’t there anymore, it’s changed and you’ve changed and it’s a whole new experience. It’s not a question of going back. Because there’s no “back” to go to [laughs]
DANIEL: Yeah, absolutely and I do think for people like Robin and some others that I spoke to in town, there’s a grieving process that’s going on but also a healing that goes with coming back and just going: why couldn’t it be like this – and ‘why couldn’t I be like this - - -’
DOUG: M’mm. M’mm.
DANIEL: ‘- - - 20-years ago’, ‘why did this need to happen’ and so it’s a really funny position that people are in. Its – kind of, this love for the place but it’s also this – this loathing, because of the history and the experience.
DOUG: Yeah, I think a lot of us gay guys and girls have that kind of problem. We have a love-hate relationship with our roots depending on how it was when we were growing-up there – m’mm, if you had a rough time. If the area was very homophobic you definitely wouldn’t want to go back. But you can heal it. Talking about Pro Hart, you mentioned him a few moments ago you met his son and his son’s partner. He was also very clear that Broken Hill had changed quite a lot?
DANIEL: Absolutely. Now, Pro Hart’s son had an interesting thing – you know, whilst Robin found fame and fortune later on, Pro Hart’s son copped it not only because people assumed that he was gay and found out he was gay but also because he was famous and there was – you know, his dad would drive around town in a Rolls Royce and - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - he did really stick out and his dad was on “This is Your Life” and he really felt that - - -
DOUG: Not a subtle man, hah?
DANIEL: - - - into the spotlight – m’mm, even more so than just for being gay, in town – and really copped it – like, copped it from all sides as soon as he walked out of the house.
DOUG: Yeah and how did he cope with that?
DANIEL: He was saying Broken Hill was no different than a lot of other places in that there were lots of outrageous parties behind closed doors. It tended to be gay men and gay men found each other and they would have these extravagant dinners and then they’d walk out of the house and you wouldn’t necessarily know what had gone on. But that was their only outlet and so, what he decided to do was he really needed to move away. So, Harry speaks about that quite clearly. That he had to get away and he also swore that he would never come back - - -
DOUG: [laughs] But he did.
DANIEL: - - - ailing father that led him to come back.
DOUG: Yeah and of course, as you say it didn’t help that his parents were part of the Assemblies of God.
DANIEL: No, absolutely no. Harry says: you’re behind the eight ball, already – like, it was hard enough in Broken Hill but then you add the weight of that and then, ‘my father’s celebrity’ and he said it was a nightmare for him, growing-up.
DOUG: Yeah. Kids of people who are famous there’s always pressure to be a chip off the old block, carry on the tradition – all those other things, but if you’re gay [laughs] and your parents are in the Assemblies of God I think that avenue’s kind of closed off?
DANIEL: Yeah. Yeah and – you know, he talks about – I mean, this is also a thing that I’ve found, is – over the time it’s interesting when someone’s dying and their son and his partner are looking after you(sic) it definitely softens and it changes views and some things were said in the final years that helped immensely. But leading up to that point - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
DANIEL: - - - there needed to be a lot of patience and tolerance for how the parents treated the son.
DOUG: Yeah. Yeah. Before you go, I’ve got to find out what is all this stuff about snail penises [laughs] - - -
DANIEL: Yeah, I – look, basically, what happened was – m’mm, I met a young, German artist whose job is to draw snail penises - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - for the museum – of, I think it’s the Museum of New South Wales and - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: He had an art work in Broken Hill and he had an interesting story, where they were putting it up in the Broken Hill Gallery they stuffed it up and they tore it down the middle by accident. He had to make this mad dash to Broken Hill. You can only do that by train, it’s an absolute nightmare - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - given it’s 12 to 13-hours and got off the train, ran to the gallery – fixed it up, then got back on the train - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and went back to Sydney again. Anyway, he was an interesting character who I met.
DOUG: What a profession [laughs]
DANIEL: [indistinct]
DOUG: I suppose somebody has to do it, I - - -
DANIEL: You have no idea, he said: I can’t believe it, myself [indistinct] but he actually finds it highly, highly interesting and there’s(sic) apparently a lot of snail penises to be drawn in the world so, go Australia.
DOUG: I think we’ll leave it there, Daniel [laughs] - - -
DANIEL: Please do.
DOUG: - - - leave the rest of it to peoples’ imaginations but if you happen to be around the New South Wales museum perhaps you could go in and ask to see their drawings of snail penises [laughs] - - -
DANIEL: [indistinct]
DOUG: - - - see what reaction you get?
DANIEL: There are some disproportionate ones out there so – yeah.
DOUG: Yes. Yes, I’m sure there are lots of fancy frills and furbelows and eyes and all sorts of strange things going on there. Fascinating stuff – so, you’re back in Victoria now and you’re on the home stretch. Where are you going to be talking to us from, next week?
DANIEL: Next week, I’m going to be talking to you from north-western Victoria so, places like Mildura and Swan Hill.
DOUG: Ah-ha so, it won’t be too wet we hope?
DANIEL: M’mm, no. I’m keeping my feet and my [indistinct] dry right now - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - see how I go.
DOUG: Okay. Daniel Witthaus, thank you for joining us this morning.
DANIEL: Thank you, everyone.
DOUG: As you heard there, north-western Victoria next week – m’mm, in the meantime – I still can’t over the snail penises in Broken Hill [laughs] - - -
Transcripts prepared by James Stratton.
