Doug PollardHow to fix the rising tide of homophobia in schools
As 'Writing Themselves In Again' 3 is launched, describing how abuse of gay and lesbian teenagers has increased in the past six years, with schools the main forum for violence and exclusion, Doug and Daniel sum up what Daniel found, challenging homophobia in schools across Australia. And he says it wouldn't be hard to fix.
DOUG: We gave Daniel Witthaus a week-off last week I think more-or-less to recover because he’s finally finished his grand tour around Australia so I thought we’d get him in for one last time this week to talk about the final week when he was here and around Melbourne – and elsewhere – and to get his thoughts on the whole experience, I guess. So good morning, Daniel.
DANIEL: Good morning, Doug.
DOUG: Nice to see you back again and looking very rested now, I’m happy to say.
DANIEL: Yeah – well, it’s my fifth day off in a row. So I feel – I feel fantastic at the moment.
DOUG: That’s great. So, how did your final week go because you were back in Melbourne for most of it, weren’t you?
DANIEL: Yeah – I had a chance to talk to the Rainbow Network, some teachers and health professionals there. Which was fun. I did a bit of a photo exploration of my trip and told some stories along-the-way and got a chance to do some professional development with Centre for Adult Education and also for one of the prestigious – m’mm, schools [laughs] which I won’t name on air - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and a couple of interviews. So, that was really good as the wrap-up.
DOUG: Now that all coincided of course, with this big blow-up at the Ivanhoe Girls’ Grammar School.
DANIEL: It did. So I got asked to comment on that a few times as I’m sure all of us did [laughs]
DOUG: Didn’t we all – well, we spoke with the headmistress here on the programme and although they seemed to have stuffed-up with this particular case it doesn’t sound as though they’re that bad overall, as a school?
DANIEL: Yeah and the thing is as a lot of people were saying, this is incredible. It’s 2010 and this is the – kind of, state-of-affairs but like I tell so many people who asked me if you look at Ivanhoe Grammar compared with most schools around Australia that I’ve spoken to, they’re along the way to leading the pack. That’s the best that we can hope for – so, that’s - - -
DOUG: [indistinct] make mistakes, basically.
DANIEL: - - - yeah – but, yeah and I think so – and one of the things that was really interesting that came out of that – ‘cause the – you know, the headmistress was going, well, I don’t think her response is appropriate and ‘I don’t think she has the right to be upset’ and all this kind-of-stuff - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: What I said to people around the country is that the litmus test is how young people are feeling and if a young person is feeling that way then – you know, that’s a clue that things aren’t right.
DOUG: Yeah - - -
DANIEL: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - At-the-end-of-the-day I think one has to look at the fact the girls’ decided to go somewhere else - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: ‘Cause if things were really that wonderful and if the school had been able to manage the situation then I don’t think they would’ve walked, to go to another school. I mean, one has to take a certain amount of credit – give a certain amount of credit to – you know, the age of the girls and the fact that all teenagers tend to be a bit dramatic. I do worry a little bit about the impact on them down the years but they do seem to be awfully media-savvy particularly Hannah.
DANIEL: Yeah and I think it’s interesting, there’re a couple of things that came out of that and one was – m’mm, you know – with her father in particular, who was so behind the whole case and supportive of her. Then the other thing is that a headmistress had to so vocal and so out-in-the-media about this ‘cause usually these things have happened – I mean, I’ve spoken with people who’ve said this was happening 10-years ago ‘we went through the same thing’ but it just didn’t go up in the media. The way that this one did.
DOUG: Yeah – yeah, which is a marker of the change - - -
DANIEL: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - very definitely. So – okay, you’ve finished your: “Beyond That’s So Gay” tour – big sigh of relief no doubt?
DANIEL: [laughs] Yes.
DOUG: All ‘round - - -
DANIEL: Who knew that it was actually going to work [laughs]
DOUG: - - - well, yes – you took a leap in the dark when you started on this - - -
DANIEL: Absolutely.
DOUG: As the phrase goes: relying on the kindness of strangers.
DANIEL: (and) Flying-by-the-seat-of-my-pants for 266-days and – yeah. For a control freak like me that was - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - quite confronting.
DOUG: Now that you’ve been around and now that you’ve seen virtually – well, not every corner of Australia but dipped-in to every State and you’ve been to quite a lot of the major conurbations overall, what’re your impressions of the state of homophobia in Australia – if I can put it like that?
DANIEL: Yeah – look, the – I talk to people how it was groundhog week all week in every different kind of location and I was hearing the same things. I was coming up against the same kinds of challenges and barriers and I – kind of, have to balance out – kind of, my assessment. Which is I think we under-estimate the state of homophobia in Australia – so, I hear a lot of people saying, hang on its 2010 – it’s better these days, we’ve got this-that-and-the-other. But if you go out into – kind of, every-day land. Mainstream organisations – most schools, what you’re finding is what they’re talking about, their experiences are akin to 10 [or] 15-years ago regardless of the changes. But sometimes I think that the reason why people don’t want to make that assessment apart from the fact that they often – you know, they’re not in contact with schools, students and young people any more is the fact that people are concerned that there’s not really much that we can do – like, we’re doing so much already. (and) So much has changed. So, surely if homophobia’s so bad there’s really not a lot more that we can do and my message is that there is. In every place I went there were people who were open to these discussion – with minimal investment, they were ready to do thing differently. The very next day – not in educational-utopia land. Not in 10 to 15-years, it was – like, what can we do differently tomorrow.
DOUG: Would it also be fair to say that quite often you found there was a gap between what policy was supposed to be and the actual practise on-the-ground – there was a lot of good intention but it wasn’t always carried through?
DANIEL: Yeah. One of the things I think we don’t do well in this country around challenging homophobia education is we can talk-the-talk really well and we have – kind of, the principles and ideals – but what we don’t necessarily work with really well is the fact that that’s all logic. That’s all using the brain. But the majority of teachers and health professionals I’ve spoken with around the country are operating on their gut and they’re feeling sick – it’s like, ‘I don’t want to do something ‘cause I feel sick ‘cause a parent might say something’. Or: one of my colleagues might think that I’m gay – or – ‘one of the kids might start calling me a faggot if I start challenging homophobia in my classroom’. ‘I’m not really sure how I feel about this’ and until we deal with that emotion we’re not going to get people taking the practical steps. We’re going to get them saying, yes, yes, we need to – kind of, do all this stuff – and – ‘yes, it makes sense’ but actually getting practical is something that’s not happening. I mean, we need to – we need to take responsibility for that. M’mm, it’s unfortunate but if we don’t take responsibility for that in the next three to 5-years this ain’t (sic) happening in youth organisations and in schools, out of goodwill. That’s sobering.
DOUG: How do we tackle that?
DANIEL: We get a whole bunch of people going out and having cuppas with people – and we give them resources and strategies. Because what people are saying is ‘we don’t know about the organisations that can help us in our own State and territory’, ‘we don’t know what strategies we can use in our classroom(s)’ – or in our every-day – kind of, youth settings. All of these really basic, practical things we don’t have and even things such as the Writing Themselves In – stuff, [WTi3] the third report of that is being launched on Friday - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
DANIEL: - - - the basic research – I mean, all these things are things teachers and health professionals are saying – and ‘we’ve never seen it, we don’t know what you’re talking about’. (and) When they see it, their eyes light-up and they go: ‘it’s about time, this is bloody fantastic’ – we need to use this.
DOUG: Where do we find people to do what you’ve done, in effect and go out and tell teachers about these things – and to kick-start the process I mean, is this something the government ought to be doing?
DANIEL: Yeah – well, this is something that we need to be working with mainstream organisations and people will go ho-hum – like, gee, that’s a new finding – but one of the things is that LGBT organisations and projects around the country are under-resources and over capacity. One of the things we need to do is we need to get more organisations who are going out to these areas and talking with people – and spending time with them. People go: ‘okay, we’re going to fly-in’ to – kind of, Bairnsdale or Mildura – and – ‘we’re going to train them and then we’re going to leave’ and I say, no. How ‘bout you go and have a week with them; you go and have a chat, you go and have cuppas. You go and drop-off resources and you spend time getting to know them – and what their challenges and barriers are – identified by them, it’s: community-development-1-0-1. But it’s the investment that’s actually not happening and I’m not blaming the LGBT organisations I’m just saying that we need to – kind of, think about how we can get more resources. Because at the moment even we double, triple – quadruple – the resources for LGBT organisations they’re still not going to be able to get out to most of these communities.
DOUG: It still sounds to me like it’s a job for somebody – some kind of government initiative probably wrapt into one of the anti-bullying programmes that are slowly but surely making their way out into schools.
DANIEL: Yeah – and – and - - -
DOUG: I think we need to put a specific, gay component in to all those things.
DANIEL: It needs to be specific, it needs to be named. Or otherwise bullying programmes are – kind of, like – ‘we’ll deal with bullying, we’ll deal with respect – we’ll deal with diversity’. But this is a different kind of bullying, a different kind of - - -
DOUG: Yeah - - -
DANIEL: - - - issue.
DOUG: That was what happened with Ivanhoe – you know, I - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: - - - was talking to the headmistress and I kept trying to nail-her-down and say: but what have you got specifically to address homophobic bullying. (and) She kept coming back and saying: we take all kinds of bullying seriously. I think what we’ve learnt from your trip around is you have to separate out homophobic bullying and treat that as an issue on its own.
DANIEL: Yeah and once you do that you can then integrate it. You can then put it in with everything else – but until you specifically name it and deal with it, individually – I mean, the thing like the bullying ‘we deal with all bullying the same way’ well, over 50 per cent of bullying is homophobic in its nature. We know that from stats with young men and all the rest of it and if we’re not dealing with homophobia specifically, then over 50 per cent of bullying – you know? “Phtew” (sic) [indistinct]
DOUG: Okay – well, let’s hope you’ve kick-started something – m’mm and - - -
DANIEL: Fingers crossed [laughs]
DOUG: - - - fingers crossed – let’s hope whatever the outcome of this election that the State government here and other State governments, too start taking this issue seriously – and start putting some serious money behind it. Tackling it.
DANIEL: Leaving the concrete jungle and going out into the wilds.
DOUG: Ooh, yes. Well we can’t let our pollies loose off Spring Street, can we – except at election time of course. I’m told it’s the only time they go bush; okay, well thanks very much Daniel - - -
DANIEL: Pleasure.
DOUG: - - - for all the weeks you’ve been our regular correspondent. Best of luck whatever your next venture is?
DANIEL: M’mm, my mid-life crisis - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - thank you.
[laughs]
DOUG: (and) You know – like I say, best of luck with everything.
DANIEL: Thank you so much.
DOUG: That was Daniel Witthaus with his final report back to us: Beyond ‘That’s so Gay’ all around Australia.
