Doug PollardDigging Deeper with Daniel Witthaus
DOUG: Well, you might’ve thought that was a strange piece of music to be playing but we often play strange pieces of music here in this middle hour because we’re Digging Deeper this hour and my special guest this week is Daniel Witthaus. Now, we have often talked with Daniel on the ‘phone as he’s been travelling ‘round Australia on his “Beyond That’s So Gay” tour but today we’ve got him in the studio and we’ve got him for a full hour – and he has to go and pick Kermit the Frog – why did you pick that for your first choice, Daniel?
DANIEL: M’mm, I think I picked Kermit the Frog not only ‘cause it’s the Rainbow Connection but the idea of somewhere far-away that’s perhaps better – it’s also I guess – I don’t know, if you - - -
DOUG: You could’ve done “Over the Rainbow”?
DANIEL: I could’ve done “Over the Rainbow - - -”
[laughs]
DANIEL: - - - there’s something about Kermit the Frog, if you YouTube it you can see him sitting on a log - - -
DOUG: Yes.
DANIEL: You know, with the banjo; if you don’t melt you have a heart of ice.
DOUG: Yeah, it’s amazing isn’t it? He’s only a scrap of felt with somebody’s hand up his backside so to speak and yet - - -
DANIEL: Yes.
DOUG: - - - it’s amazing isn’t it?
DANIEL: Yes.
DOUG: It is incredible and as I said, I don’t think you’re the first person to choose that particular piece for that very reason.
DANIEL: I’ve been around the country when I’ve selected that song for various radio stations, they have had a very emotive response to it – which has been negative – but afterward, they go: Aw - - -
DOUG: [laughs] Well, we’ll come on to talking about your travels and about the “Beyond That’s So Gay” tour. I want to put things in context ‘cause a lot of people have been saying over the weeks and months you’ve been doing this: who is this Daniel Witthaus, where does he come from. You know: ‘what’s he about’ so let’s start back at the beginning - - -
DANIEL: That’s a very good place to start.
DOUG: - - - indeed, m’mm - - -
DANIEL: [laughs]
DOUG: No, we’re not going to do “Sound of Music”. I refuse to have a “Sound of Music” track – m’mm, where were you born?
DANIEL: I was born in Geelong and that was way back in 1976, the number one song at that time was Elton John’s and Kiki Dee’s: Don’t Go Breakin’ My Heart. I think that Elton John has had a place in my heart ever since.
DOUG: [laughs] Oh, dear – ’76, I won’t tell you what I was doing in 1976. What sort of a family did you have, tell us a bit about your parents, for example?
DANIEL: Yeah – look, mum was a stock-standard Aussie – or is, a stock-standard Aussie. She was working in factories, cleaning jobs and things like that. My father came over from Germany when he was four-years-old and was – I don’t know, there’s lots of immigrants who really want to get involved and become even more patriotic for their new country. He wanted to become a police officer - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
DANIEL: - - - and to serve the community and country. They bore three children, my older brother and sister, myself being the baby.
DOUG: Ah, so you’re the young one of the litter so to speak - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: I am so I sat back, shut-up and learnt a lot [laughs]
DOUG: I’ve got a younger sister and she always said she was glad to be one of the younger ones because – well, she was the only younger one because there were only two of us but she said: ‘they made all the mistakes with you’. ‘They got it right with me’ and: besides which, they were too busy worrying about you to be worried about me’.
DANIEL: Then there’s the old story they just give up by the time it’s the second or the third, they go: we’ve had enough of this - - -
DOUG: Yeah, ‘cause they figure out you can’t really go that far wrong.
DANIEL: - - - and look at me, they’ve let me loose – yeah.
DOUG: Yes; so, did you have that kind of benign neglect, if I can call it that – did you sit in the shadow of your older siblings?
DANIEL: M’mm, no. I think I was lucky. I had ups-and-downs with my siblings – like, when I was younger I was adored by them. When I got a little bit older they hated my guts and then I think they came to begrudgingly love me, again. As I hit my later teen years and early 20s – so, I don’t feel like I stood in the shadows.
DOUG: You obviously weren’t in any way damaged by any of this, I wouldn’t have thought. Because you strike me as a very confident and competent person, now – were you always or has that been hard won?
DANIEL: I would say it would be hard won – I mean, thank you for that observation. I think I grew-up as an intensely shy introvert who was quite sheltered and who was quite scared to venture out of the home. I was very happy to put my head in books rather than go out into the world and every time I did it felt like I should go back home again.
[laughs]
DANIEL: Read more books [laughs]
DOUG: So, you had to force yourself out there?
DANIEL: Absolutely. I can still remember my mum was sitting down for a cup of tea and I was listening through the walls as I did ‘cause they thin back [indistinct] and she was saying: ‘I just don’t know what it is about Daniel, his brother and sister are always going out with friends but he sits at home’ so they decided they would do things to force me out. They threw me into Cubs and they - - -
DOUG: Oh, m’mm, m’mm. M’mm.
DANIEL: - - - into various team sports, orientation days and they sent me off to this God-awful, 10-day camp. If anyone’s been to summer camp – absolute trauma – but they thought that would bring me out of my shell. It was a family of extroverts.
DOUG: I can relate to that; I was sent to something called: “The Boys’ Brigade” which was a Naval version of the Scouts - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm?
DOUG: - - - when I was 8-years old and I absolutely hated it. Then when I went to school I was thrown into the Cadets Corps for the same reason. Didn’t work, didn’t work.
DANIEL: I just wanted to not be with groups of young men who were gathered and talking about cars, football and things like that.
DOUG: Did you do what I did and make yourself lots of girlfriends?
DANIEL: I did – like, I pretty much kept to myself. Had a small circle of friends. So, definitely I would say that I had – m’mm, a good proportion of young, female friends. I also had males. But I think if I look back, I was hanging out with the outcasts at school so primary school was different. I was more popular – but when I got to high school, I lurked in the shadows and that was for – you know, a very good reason. As with those people who were lurking in the shadows, too, for similar reasons to myself.
DOUG: So were you bullied at school?
DANIEL: Yeah, I was bullied. Day-in-and-day-out from Year 7 all the way through and I remember hoping all the homophobes would – you know, who happened to be stupid, I couldn’t wait for them to drop-out of school – or leave school. Or be kicked-out so - - -
DOUG: Is this one of the things that drives you to do what you do now, your own experience?
DANIEL: I think that’s a romantic, reductionist view because when people ask me about this if you had of sat me down at 17, 18 and said to me: do you think your experience matters – I can tell you that I would’ve said out-and-out: no.
DOUG: M’mm.
DANIEL: It was when I started volunteering with young people and I was hearing their stories, I went I’ve got to do what I can for those young people. So, it was about something other than myself(sic). Because I didn’t think back then that my experience was important enough to go out and start a programme or – yeah, to challenge homophobia.
DOUG: But it did allow you to empathise with these young people and to understand what they needed.
DANIEL: M’mm - - -
DOUG: In a way I think very few other people have done.
DANIEL: - - - yeah, look – I think, absolutely. It gave me a credible insight but I’m always really careful not to say – I think a lot of people can say my experience is everybody else’s and I know I went through a really, really difficult time. As I see how young people have responded to that it makes me think about my own experience. But absolutely, having been through that bullying at school – definitely – helped inform and get me on my way but again its other peoples’ experiences that really drove me to get into this work.
DOUG: You’ve been doing it quite a long time now, too?
[laughs]
DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. Pretty much since I’ve been – like, 19, 20-years of age. I call my life a series of fortunate accidents. I never expected to be anything that I’m doing now.
DOUG: Well – yes, ‘cause you wanted to be an air force pilot?
DANIEL: Well, yes-and-no - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: - - - my father sat me down, watching a documentary when I was 12-years-old and he was watching a helicopter pilot and he said: ‘geez, wouldn’t that be a great thing, you-know-what, you should get into the air force then you’ll be able to fly’ then all-of-a-sudden, he was living vicariously through me - - -
DOUG: Ah, ha.
DANIEL: Now, as a person who goes: gee, yeah – fine. I watched Top Gun, why not – you know, that was the idea and it was set in place but when I went to the Defence Forces to go for a scholarship I looked around and went: holy cow. There’s all these clean-cut young men who are incredibly attractive - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and then I thought I hate the structure, I hate the – I hate the discipline - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
[laughs]
DOUG: It does have that – m’mm, I often think the armed forces are okay as a gay fantasy. But as a gay fact I think they probably – you know, very few can make it work shall we say?
DANIEL: Yeah and for me it was the worst, possible place. At that stage of my life I was - - -
DOUG: You talked about not wanting to be involved in team sports - - -
DANIEL: - - - m’mm - - -
DOUG: With lots of macho, gung-ho, good-looking boys - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: - - - and all the rest of it. That’s team sports on a large scale, really – isn’t it, the armed forces?
DANIEL: Yeah and also, you had people barking orders and you had to follow instructions. I had a big issue with male, authority figures when I was 17, 18-years of age and again, probably the worst place you could’ve placed me – yeah.
DOUG: Okay. I think we’ll take a break there and have another piece of music, what’s your next choice going to be?
DANIEL: I think what we’ll go for is: Wired for Sound. By Cliff Richard. One of the campest film clips you’ll ever see in your life.
DOUG: He’s just had his – is it his 70th birthday, I think – in the U.K., he was celebrating?
DANIEL: Didn’t he celebrate with a commitment ceremony or something like - - -
DOUG: M’mm – no, no. Unfortunately he hasn’t even come out yet, has he?
DANIEL: Oh – but he’s talked about his intense relationship with a particular friend over about 20, 25-years. Hasn’t he?
DOUG: Yeah, that’s about as close as he’s got.
DANIEL: Yeah.
DOUG: He has given-up wearing those chiffon scarves to hide his wattles so I guess he’s accepting his age a little bit, now.
[laughs]
DANIEL: Go Cliff.
DOUG: Okay – so, here we go - - -
DANIEL: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - with Cliff Richard.
[music]
DOUG: This hour we’re Digging Deeper with Daniel Witthaus who has been travelling Australia for – m’mm, 39-weeks now – I think. On his: “Beyond That’s So Gay” tour and we’re finding out why he got into all this in the first place - - -
DANIEL: [laughs] I often ask that question myself.
[laughs]
DOUG: I’m sure you do especially when you end up sleeping in the ute.
DANIEL: [laughs]
DOUG: You were talking a little while ago about summer camp, a listener has messaged to say:
[reads]
“You think being sent to summer camp for 10-days was bad? My parents decided to turn our farm into a camp so I was forced to live in that environment 24/7 ...”
I guess you got-off lightly, there.
DANIEL: Yes, absolutely.
DOUG: Do you think that all this business about pushing you toward the air force, about sending you out to camp – about making you join things – may have been some kind of subconscious attempt to stop you being gay?
DANIEL: I think that’s a really good question. My father came from a very strict, masculine family with his father being very harsh on him and then he got into the police force and I know my father’s connection with my older brother was very different to me. So, if they tried to do the rough-and-tumble rough housing with me I used to squeal or cry and I think my father was seeking a connection with me because I didn’t play football like he did, I didn’t go to Scouts like he did and he was trying to find some way for me to have a point of connection with him that was masculine. Whereas with my mum I had everything, I had music - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: I had movies, cooking – whatever – so - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: Gee, I’m painting a stereotypical picture aren’t I?
[laughs]
DOUG: It’s remarkable how often that is the case. The number of people I’ve interviewed in this segment, over the programme now runs into quite a large number and you’d be amazed how often that cliché fits.
DANIEL: M’mm.
DOUG: I don’t think it’s anything to do with parenting style in itself. I think it’s to do with the fact that certain behaviours on the part of the child call forth certain behaviours on the part of the parents. Particularly if they want that child to be “normal”, conventional – you know, fit within the stereotype(s) and they kind of see when I child doesn’t.
DANIEL: Yeah and I think that – you know, like – my connection with my mother was often because I saw her as genuine and real. We talked about things that mattered and what was going on whereas with my dad I felt we talked about just stuff, the weather or something and I didn’t get that connection. When I started to have a different relationship with my father was when he started to me as an equal, intellectually. We used to talk about life and the universe, ethics and morals. That was when our relationship changed, dramatically.
DOUG: When did that happen?
DANIEL: That happened around-about the same time he took me on a shooting trip which is a right-of-passage thing when I was 16. We went out on motorbikes to remote farms and we shot kangaroos and rabbits – and things like that. That was going to toughen me up and when I got back I was going to be a different person – m’mm, yeah.
DOUG: Yes. Not quite the same thing as one of those initiation ceremonies they put boys through in the Aboriginal tribes but the nearest thing that we as white people, had at that point - - -
DANIEL: M’mm.
DOUG: - - - you don’t strike me as the kind of person who’d enjoy going out shooting things?
DANIEL: Look, I can tell you the truth – I shot a kangaroo, the first time I did – I couldn’t believe I did it and I had such a rush of adrenalin when I did it, I put down the gun and I vowed I would never shoot another thing again. Because I felt this incredible rush and I just went, I don’t want to feel that kind of blood lust when I’m shooting an animal – like, I knew straight away – like, I saw the kangaroo drop - - -
DOUG: You saw the dark side.
DANIEL: - - - absolutely. I did. It’s pretty much the same when people ask me if I gamble. Same thing. When I was 18, I got put in front of a pokie-machine and I felt the rush and went: never again.
[laughs]
DANIEL: I’m going to lose the lot.
DOUG: Yeah, it’s all too easy isn’t it sometimes?
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: But you turned your back on those things - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: In a way did you by doing that; isn’t that emblematic of the way you’ve chosen quite a hard road to hoe rather than taking the easy options?
DANIEL: For me it was – I don’t know, there - - -
DOUG: I mean, is it something about – you know, you like facing yourself with challenges?
DANIEL: You might say that; again, it’s this little voice inside me that went: this ain’t(sic) right. I get to the stage where I can’t live with not listening to that little voice. ‘Cause the little voice just gets louder and louder - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - if I don’t and - - -
DOUG: You’ve got a good, Protestant conscience then?
DANIEL: Perhaps. I just hate stuff that’s not genuine and it gets to me when people are talking about the weather and they’re not really talking about what’s really going on – you know, so many situations in life I want to get back to what’s actually happening.
DOUG: When you had this ‘roo-shooting experience with your father you said that was what turned the tide with you, that’s what made the difference. It was after that that you managed to forge a connection with him. Did you manage to forge that by explaining what you’ve just explained to us – to him – that you didn’t want to do it anymore and why?
DANIEL: No, it was unspoken. I avoided picking up a gun for the rest of the trip. Because I was driving around on the motorbike and he gave me an option about: do you want to shoot it or do you want me to. The kinds of things we talked about were ideas and it was a really intellectual relationship we had. Where we could drive for hours-and-hours in the truck and have these conversations I wasn’t having with anyone else - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
DANIEL: - - - in my circles and I know my father wasn’t having them with anyone else. I think, finally, he felt that – m’mm, intellectually, he was let down by my brother and sister because they didn’t have any interest in school. With me, he’s said: gee, here’s a guy who’s relatively smart and I can have those conversations with him. (and)It blossomed from there.
DOUG: It’s almost as if he started talking to you not as his son but as a separate individual?
DANIEL: That is absolutely clear to me; I still remember those conversations and I remember it was a remarkable shift, I thrived – you know, I loved it.
DOUG: Rather than being a break that was a connection.
DANIEL: It was and I think finally, he just went – hey, hang on, we’re connecting on something. I would’ve thought it would’ve been football - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: - - - talking about life and the universe.
DOUG: I suppose to some extent a man from that kind of background is probably – my father was fairly authoritarian, too – m’mm, is probably going to have the attitude that there are some things you don’t talk to children and young people about. Because they won’t understand and they won’t get it – and they won’t have the maturity to handle it - - -
DANIEL: M’mm.
DOUG: Then one day you’ve grown-up a little and they fail to notice that, you do something that reminds them and then that’s when you make that kind of breakthrough you’ve talked about?
DANIEL: Yeah and I mean, my father is such a strong personality. He’s so opinionated [laughs]
[laughs]
DANIEL: To be able to get even kind-of level, in conversation with him is an achievement at times. So – yeah.
DOUG: He comes from a German background, he’s from Germany – even though he left there at the age of four – you still maintain quite a strong connection with your German roots, don’t you?
DANIEL: Absolutely – like, one of the things - - -
DOUG: ‘Cause you love Berlin.
DANIEL: I do love Berlin. For me, it’s – m’mm, a place that resonates with me and I think it’s because growing-up with my German grandmother, I used to think she was the most exotic, eccentric thing and if you’ve ever been to Norlane you’ll know anything’s eccentric and exotic.
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: One of the things I did, I used to talk to her about Germany and ask her to teach me German. She’s – like, ‘don’t be silly’. Like, Germany’s a world away, you’re never going to go there – who cares?
DOUG: M’mm.
DANIEL: We’re in Australia, now – but it was something that I kept on wanting to go to Germany, to learn the language. To absorb that. I’ve been lucky enough to live a couple of times in Berlin and it’s been so good for me.
DOUG: You’ve really made a connection with your roots, you feel, by doing that?
DANIEL: M’mm – yeah, it’s interesting – like, I always heard about my father’s house when I was growing-up, in [indistinct] which is in the north-west of Germany. I made a pilgrimage there when I was 24, 25 and it’s interesting. I haven’t talked to my dad for about 16, 17-years and – m’mm, I went to that house. Looking for it – and when I arrived, it’d become a car park for a hardware store. I was gutted but one of the things I reflected on was I’d travelled half-way ‘round the world – like, the world - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
DANIEL: - - - in order to somehow get a connection with my father, my grandmother and my history - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
DANIEL: What’s that about? So, it started me thinking about: what is it I’m actually searching for? History, background and context is really important. Because what it does, it helps me understand myself more.
DOUG: I hate to say this but – m’mm, it seems like an almost obvious question. But many of the things you’ve said about your father make him sound like a stereotypical German in the sense – you know, disciplined. Authority figure, police, keen on the armed forces – all the rest of it – would you say that was true?
DANIEL: I think if you - - -
DOUG: Or am I playing into an old cliché, here?
DANIEL: If you take the cliché and you whack it with a bit of Australia - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
DANIEL: - - - that’s my father – like, he is Australian in so many ways. But at the same time he’s got the German undertone. He couldn’t – like, he is the perfect marriage between Germany and Australia - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: If we know what that actually is.
DOUG: Aren’t you another kind of marriage between Germany and Australia because you’ve got the existential angst?
[laughs]
DANIEL: Absolutely.
DOUG: Instead of the authoritarian side you’ve got the other side of the German character, almost – you know, the self-examination. The – confronting things, that’s also in many ways clichéd Germanic isn’t it?
DANIEL: Yeah which is one of the reasons I think when I got to go to Germany, it’s something that resonates for me and - - -
DOUG: You feel like: this about me makes sense.
DANIEL: - - - yeah. Absolutely. When I get there and look around, see the people I don’t see the grumpy Germans everybody else sees when they come over, backpacking - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: I go: well, that’s my family.
[laughs]
DOUG: Yeah – m’mm, I’ll not say anything about my trips back to Lancashire. But I know what you mean. Let’s take a break for another piece of music, here – now, Deborah Cox: “Nobody’s Supposed To Be Here” – the dance version, you said: “If ever I was to be in a film clip I’d want to run through falling Polaroids like she does in this clip”, can you describe that for us?
DANIEL: She’s running through – it’s at night and there’s – like, it’s showering Polaroids and she’s running in slow motion through it and I think it’s the most over-the-top thing in a film clip I’ve ever seen. I think if I was in a film clip I really want that to happen to me.
[laughs]
DOUG: Well, you know we’re a gay radio station. Over-the-top is one of the things we do quite well so – m’mm, let’s have: “Nobody’s Supposed To Be Here”, Deborah Cox.
[music]
DOUG: You’re listening to Freshly Doug with me, Doug Pollard. This is the Digging Deeper hour and we’re Digging Deeper with Daniel Witthaus and just before we go back to him I’ve got to put a warning out, here. From VicRoads. There are major up-grade works taking place on the Monash City Link, Westgate Freeway so watch-out there, there’s going to be some delay – delays. Now, Ebony messaged to say:
[reads]
“Good morning, gents. What’s the film clip with OTT rain running you were both discussing? I only just tuned in.”
DANIEL: If you YouTube: Deborah Cox “Nobody’s Supposed To Be Here” you’ll see it but make sure you get the dance version and it’s in the climax of the song where it’s starting to go instrumental before the big peak. She starts running in slow motion.
DOUG: Yeah, through clouds of falling Polaroids.
DANIEL: Yeah.
DOUG: [laughs] Don’t ask me why - - -
DANIEL: Good idea.
DOUG: - - - and I won’t ask, either.
[laughs]
DOUG: ‘What are Polaroids, anyway’ say some of our younger listeners. Another piece of technology that’s gone by the wayside, pretty much. We’ve talked a bit about Germany and your connection back to your German roots; although you’ve been back to Germany and you’ve learned the language, you’ve obviously enjoyed doing that. You’re very much an Australian in all other respects are you not?
DANIEL: M’mm - - -
DOUG: You’re very – for example, dead keen on tennis?
DANIEL: - - - [laughs] - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: But isn’t that more like the old country, though?
DOUG: I think that’s very Australian, tennis – I mean, you were the first lot who came over and taught the British how to play it properly.
[laughs]
DOUG: ‘You ought to be wearing short trousers - - -’
DANIEL: As short as possible.
DOUG: - - - yes, yes. I notice you’re wearing long trousers today, I think that’s the first time I’ve seen you in long pants?
DANIEL: Most people – and that was yesterday, I did something with the Rainbow Network and they said ‘I can’t believe you’re not wearing shorts’ and I have structured my drive around Australia so that it’s always in the warmest parts of - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - the year so I can wear shorts. That’s my goal, to wear shorts and a T-shirt for the rest of my life. Every single day.
DOUG: Now as I said tennis is one of your other great loves is it not, when did you start playing tennis?
DANIEL: I discovered I wanted to play tennis around-about the time I’d discovered I didn’t want to play team sports – like, football and cricket – and m’mm, my parents thought that it wasn’t something they wanted me to do. My mother thought it was for rich people and would be too expensive, I’d be snobby if I started up and my father simply thought poofs(sic) played it. So - - -
[laughs]
DOUG: Right on both counts.
DANIEL: - - - [laughs] - - -
DOUG: [indistinct] persevere with it?
DANIEL: I decided – there was an old racket out and there was a tennis ball. I used to hit it against the garage wall every night for one or two hours and just kept hitting and hitting and hitting – and then, they still didn’t get the message that I wanted to play tennis for next – God knows, like – 8-years.
DOUG: You don’t want Daniel dropping hints at you, obviously.
[laughs]
DANIEL: But when I moved to Melbourne finally in 1999, I thought ‘what are the things I haven’t been doing in my life’ – ‘cause, look – I think that coming out of Geelong I was so sheltered and green. Naïve. You have no idea. I thought, what are the things and experiences I would take up if I wasn’t still living in Geelong(sic) and one of those was to play tennis and I started playing gay tennis.
DOUG: You’ve done quite well at it, haven’t you? I mean, you’ve been to several Gay Games now.
DANIEL: I’ve absolutely over-achieved. If you knew what I started with - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and I started at the age of 23, 24. I’ve over-achieved in every sense of the word and I’ve managed to get gold medals at the Out Games and these kinds of events – and Gay Games – just beyond my wildest dreams. I used to wonder what it’d be like to stand on the podium at an Olympics because I remember in 1984, watching the Los Angeles Olympics and seeing Glynis Nunn ball her eyes out after winning the heptathlon and I thought, I wonder what that’s like. When I was standing on the podium in Montreal I just – yeah, it was a very surreal, emotional moment.
DOUG: What is it about tennis particularly, apart from the shorts?
DANIEL: I think what it is, it’s a solo pursuit. It’s actually a connection back to Germany ‘cause when I was in about Grade 4, I’d heard about this young, German sensation called Steffi Graff who was playing and she was German. Everyone at that point was talking about Martina Navratilova - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm?
DANIEL: - - - and I thought, she’s German. My father had drilled into us that Germany was the best thing that ever happened, the greatest country in the world so I picked up and thought I want to start playing tennis and Steffi Graff is my idol. The rest is history - - -
DOUG: She’s got the shoulders for it.
DANIEL: The shoulders and she’s got apparently, the greatest legs in tennis history. But – you know - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and I did ask her to marry me when I was 17, at Myer Melbourne and I’m still waiting for the answer.
DOUG: I think if she’s listening she might decide not to.
DANIEL: Yeah.
[laughs]
DANIEL: Look at what you could’ve had, Steffi.
DOUG: Yes, indeed. She could’ve had you and ute called: Bruce.
DANIEL: Absolutely. 17-years on.
DOUG: So you still carry a torch for her, isn’t that sweet?
DANIEL: I certainly do - - -
[laughs]
DOUG: It’s interesting you say: because it was a solo sport. You’ve reacted against team things and team sports, you’ve reacted against the team thing in rejecting the military is it because you want to be personally responsible for what you achieve and not dependent on others?
DANIEL: I hate nothing more than being involved in something that stuffs-up because of someone else and I don’t have any kind of control over. I would say absolutely I have been on-and-off, a control freak for all of my life - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - but a part of that was I mean – like, because of all the things I’ve been through especially through my teenage years the most important thing for me was ‘how do I gain as much control as possible’ so that my well-being and my quality of life is not in other peoples’ hands and if you had got me in my 20s you would’ve seen me ferociously doing that at every opportunity whereas now, I’m a little more relaxed about that and open to others being involved.
DOUG: Yeah, that brings us on to neatly something else I wanted to ask you about and that is the whole thing about “others” in your life.
DANIEL: M’mm.
DOUG: Going around the country for all these weeks pretty much on your own for most of it, I know you had Paul Hollingworth with you for part of the journey at the beginning - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: - - - but more-or-less entirely on your own - - -
DANIEL: Yes.
DOUG: Doing things like that must put an enormous strain on any relationship so you’re not in a relationship at the moment or you are?
DANIEL: Like I tell everybody - - -
DOUG: Or one of those long-distance ones?
DANIEL: I have a boyfriend and it’s called: “Beyond That’s So Gay” national tour and we’re together for 38-weeks. Once it’s over I’m [laughs]
DOUG: You’re back on the market.
DANIEL: I’m back on the market – look, no. It’s been a really difficult one for me. I spent the first 10-years of my adult life in long term, monogamous relationships and really happy to do so – and really glad that I did. But I guess, as it’s become apparent that I need to travel the globe for the international LGBT work I’ve done, drive around the country it’s been difficult to – m’mm, balance that with a relationship. Where someone doesn’t take it personally and doesn’t think I’m running away from them when I’ve decided I’m going to go on a national tour. It’s amazing how people take my decisions, like that, personally. They think I’ve decided to go on a 38-week national tour ‘cause I can’t commit to a relationship - - -
DOUG: [laughs] But darling haven’t you worked out yet with gay guys everything’s personal?
DANIEL: - - - yeah. But I mean, I’ve had some amazing partners who’ve realised there were things that there are things I need to do and they understand the passion I have for my work. They understand that I’m – you know, a better partner when I am doing that work. But at the same time it means if I’m travelling all the time and I’m seeing them for only 2-weeks out of 52 that’s not a relationship, that’s - - -
DOUG: No.
DANIEL: - - - an idea – yeah, so – they’re the kinds of decisions I’ve been faced with over the years.
DOUG: Yes and of course, the kind of work you do doesn’t pay enough for you to take a partner ‘round with you?
DANIEL: M’mm – no, although - - -
DOUG: Even if they were willing to do so.
DANIEL: You would be amazing at how many people have said they wanted to jump in the passenger seat and drive around Australia - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and I go: look, you might think that it’s glamorous but it ain’t. You don’t want to for over 250-days on the road with me.
[laughs]
DOUG: Well, it would certainly be the acid test of any relationship - - -
DANIEL: Certainly.
DOUG: ‘Where are we going to sleep tonight – I don’t know, probably in the tray’ you know?
DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ‘Snuggle up’ [laughs]
DOUG: Yes. It certainly wouldn’t play very well for me, I can tell you. I like my creature comforts and I’m certain a lot of other people do, too. As you see it your work comes before anything else?
DANIEL: If you look at my career - - -
DOUG: Because looking at your C.V., hearing what you’ve just said - - -
DANIEL: - - - m’mm, m’mm?
DOUG: It’s extremely important to you that you do this work.
DANIEL: Well – I mean, the thing is I can – if I decided to put other things first I probably wouldn’t have done three quarters of the work that I’ve done. I got to the stage where I thought, if there’s a little bit of sacrifice it means that it’s done. As opposed to it’s not – then, I’ll do it. If someone else was doing it I’d go great, I’m going to have a relationship and – like, you know – not travel around the country but who else is going to go around to all these regional and rural parts? At the moment it’s not happening, if someone else wants to take it on board please do it. I would rather be sitting in Melbourne having the same bed every night and having a wider variety of clothes than I do now.
DOUG: You sound like someone else I know who when I said, why do you put yourself through all this – why do you do all these things, he said: I couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t. You know, ‘I’ve certain advantages and I would feel bad if I didn’t use them in the service of the community’.
DANIEL: That’s how I felt; people ask how come you decide to do things as if I’d chosen, it was more I couldn’t now – like, the decision – it wasn’t a decision - - -
DOUG: So it’s definitely a calling in almost the religious sense?
DANIEL: - - - yeah. Well – like, I don’t want to over-state it - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - people to think that I’m some kind of wanker(sic) or anything – but absolutely, I feel so strongly that if there’s something I can do I’m going to do my best and give it a shot. I’ll bite off more than I can chew and give it a go.
DOUG: Talking about biting off more than you can chew we’re also talking about being restless and travelling a great deal, “Daniel” by Elton John sums that up - - -
DANIEL: M’mm, m’mm.
DOUG: - - - and it’s got your name attached to it. Your family like it, too, I gather?
DANIEL: Yeah. My sister sings this to me at various times and it always brings a tear to my eye and – m’mm, yeah. Anyway, it’s a sweet song.
DOUG: Okay – Elton John, “Daniel”.
[music]
DOUG: We’re talking with Daniel Witthaus, going well beyond: “Beyond That’s So Gay” today. We’ve covered an awful lot of ground, we’ve talked a lot about you personally but I want to – before we wrap up because we haven’t a huge amount of time left – I want to look at your life from a professional standpoint. Because we haven’t really looked into that; now, you went to college and you studied psychology?
DANIEL: I did, yes.
DOUG: Right. How did that lead on from there to you working with young people and their issues around sexual identity?
DANIEL: I was in Geelong, I was frustrated because the Nursing and Teaching students could get placements and Psychology students couldn’t – and I started looking for my own volunteer opportunities. I stumbled across the fact there was a gay and lesbian youth support group that was happening in Geelong and I went: geez, they’re going to need all the help they can get. I went in there one day and said: hello, I’m here to help. They go: oh, really, you’re here to help oh gee – and – okay, sure come along to the group and see how you go. They told me later they’d thought I was like everybody else, just coming to look for a boyfriend and then when they looked at me 6-months later I was still there – and I was still doing all the unglamorous tasks, turning up on time and reliable. They said, shit, you’re part of the furniture we’d better pay you for a couple of days a week – and I thought I’d hit the jackpot.
DOUG: What were you doing there, what did the work involve?
DANIEL: This was helping out with the newsletter that got sent out across the region, turning up and helping facilitate – but I don’t think I was really facilitating, I was there making up the numbers. I was there helping organise excursions and events. I was doing all of these behind-the-scenes stuff that people – you know, go: can you turn up – and I was doing that behind-the-scenes stuff. Really enjoying it because I – you know, it was somewhere I could contribute. I didn’t care – like, if it was stapling things and – like, licking envelopes I really didn’t care at that stage. I was happy to be helping.
DOUG: What moved you from that in to working with schools because that’s been your driving thing for quite a long time now, hasn’t it?
DANIEL: It has.
DOUG: It started way back then, to get in to schools and talk with the students and teachers, how did you make that move?
DANIEL: I tripped over myself a couple of times and found myself there – I started talking to young people and all of them said: school’s crap – like, ‘I cop it all-day-every-day’ and I thought every single student is saying this and so I started saying, gee, maybe we should start doing something in schools? Everyone told me, you can’t do that – ‘you can’t get in to schools’ – and even if you could, they’re not going to let you in there - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: - - - and so what I did I thought, well, what can I do? I can talk to as many different teachers as possible and I kept on talking; then, one day someone said, look I’ve been talking to a school, if you had 6-weeks talking to students in a classroom one session a week what would you do? I went away and I put things together - - -
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm?
DANIEL: - - - and thought: here’s an educated guess – to cut-a-long-story-short, I got the opportunity to work in an all-boy’s Catholic school in a funded project. For 6-weeks - - -
DOUG: This was the genesis of Pride and Prejudice?
DANIEL: - - - absolutely. This was Pride and Prejudice written on a serviette, every week so I would go in there not really – you know, I had the structure there – and low-and-behold, it worked. People were just – like, falling over themselves that I’d done this with Year 9 boys in an all-boy’s Catholic school and then it was – like, you know – ‘gee, this is getting really serious I need to - - -’ [laughs]
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: I need to put this together a bit more formally – and then it snowballed from there.
DOUG: That was your pilot of the Pride and Prejudice programme and then you got funding from VicHealth after that, didn’t you, which enabled you to develop it as a package – then, what happened from there?
DANIEL: What we could then do is we could – m’mm, get the university to perform the evaluation and we saw that it could change students’ homophobic attitudes in 6-weeks. If you look at attitude research this was unheard of especially in schools with Year 9 boys so what that then did, it gave it a little bit of – m’mm, what would you say – people said it does what it says it does. It had validity: ‘therefore we should do this a little bit more’ – and – if you can do it in an all-boy’s Catholic school with Year 9s guess what? You can do it anywhere and so all of a sudden, I was being asked to go in to lots of different schools and train teachers and health professionals. One day someone came knocking on my door, internationally – and said: we want you to work in developing nations and help us do our work overseas. It all – yeah, again – it kept on exploding. I think what held me in good stead is I said ‘yes’ to everything even though I didn’t know how to do it at the time - - -
[laughs]
DANIEL: Like, it’s serious.
DOUG: Yeah. I’ll let you into a secret, how do you think I got behind this microphone?
DANIEL: Yeah, yeah. Of course – yeah, yeah and you learn.
DOUG: Yes. You jump in the deep end and you learn – hopefully, you do it right eventually [laughs]
DANIEL: I think a really important thing was a lot of people had faith in me and they’d watch me, they said: we’re going to take a chance on you. I think that’s been the theme of my career, people have said they’re going to take an educated risk with me, believe in me and support me – and – ‘we think you’re going to come up with the goods’ – or – ‘you’re going to try your darndest(sic)’ and I’ve been lucky enough to make, hopefully, the most of those opportunities that have been presented to themselves(sic).
DOUG: I certainly think you have – I mean, you and I have spoken every week for many weeks now. We knew each other slightly before all this began, seen each other ‘round-the-traps at various community events and so on. I must say, one of the things that’s struck me about you was that – m’mm, as you said – you struck me as someone who was very competent or even if you weren’t, you would damn well go away and find out how to be competent and do your best to be competent at something. You’ve got that drive about you which is evident, I think, to anyone. That’s probably stood you in very, very good stead. Daniel, you’ve done this big tour ‘round, you’ve almost finished now – dare I ask what you’re going to do next? Do you know, have you any idea - - -
DANIEL: I’m going to have a mid-life crisis - - -
DOUG: [laughs] You can’t afford the Porsche?
DANIEL: - - - yeah [laughs] yeah-yeah-yeah.
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: I’m not sure how I’d go with the Hawaiian shirt and a man half my age – but anyway, I - - -
DOUG: I’ve some Hawaiian shirts in my wardrobe that don’t fit me anymore.
DANIEL: - - - yeah, yeah – but I mean, what I need to do is go away and document this really well. I’ve had hundreds of interviews, I’ve pages and pages of stunning stuff from people all over the country and lots of ideas. My - - -
DOUG: There’s definitely a book in there?
DANIEL: - - - there is – m’mm - - -
DOUG: There’s definitely a book in there.
DANIEL: My drive is how can I present that in the most wondrous way so people can get the most out of it – like, I feel accountable to all the spoken I’ve spoken with around the country.
DOUG: I think it would be a great thing if you did. It would probably do you some good to be in one place for a while?
DANIEL: Absolutely. I need routine and the other thing I need to do is, I need to find the first eligible bachelor who walks by me and we’re going to snuggle for a - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
DANIEL: - - - considerable period of time. So – yeah.
DOUG: Okay – well, you may have an offer here ‘cause Ross Watson the artist has just messaged me saying:
[reads]
“Can you help put me in contact with Daniel, thanks? I would love to introduce him to Elton John next time he’s over.”
DANIEL: Oh, good. I’d love to meet Elton.
DOUG: [laughs] I’ll give you Ross’ number - - -
DANIEL: Oh, thank you.
DOUG: - - - after the programme - - -
DANIEL: Thank you. Thank you, Elton – in advance.
DOUG: In advance, in advance - - -
[laughs]
DOUG: Who knows, you might end-up in the next painting.
DANIEL: Look, I’m no oil painting.
[laughs]
DOUG: Daniel, thank you very much for joining us today. It’s been a very great pleasure to talk with you at length and face-to-face instead of on the ‘phone.
DANIEL: Yeah, absolutely. It’s been a pleasure for me, too.
DOUG: You’ve one more week to run, on your tour?
DANIEL: Absolutely, I’ve got some – some stuff to do, talking to Melbourne Grammar and the C.A.E. today. All the staff and the students there. Then next week will be closing things down, in Geelong, where I started.
DOUG: Okay – well, we’ll catch-up with you then - - -
DANIEL: Yeah.
DOUG: - - - and after that please don’t be a stranger.
DANIEL: I certainly won’t.
DOUG: Keep us well informed about what you’re up to.
DANIEL: You’ll be shooing me away, I can guarantee.
DOUG: [laughs] Oh, I don’t think I’d be doing that. Now, just for a bit of fun you gave us a lot of music choices here. You had a German song about wanting a little chocolate, you had – m’mm, Bruce Springsteen. You had Sheena Easton – allow me to tell you about a dreadful Dutch version of that song - - -
DANIEL: [laughs]
DOUG: - - - sung by a gay guy in leather pants. Really, really awful. But I think what we’d really like to go out and hear; we’ve talked a lot about self confidence and what is the anthem of self confidence but Julie Andrews singing: “I Have Confidence In Me”.
