Doug PollardA Tale of Two Militaries - US DADT fail & Oz Transgender reform
Lt Dan Choi - anti-DADT campaigner
Transcript - Harley Dennett - Freshly Doug 23/09/2010
DOUG: We have on the line now, our Washington correspondent: Harley Dennett – and it’s been an exciting time over there, with all the kerfuffle of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”. Harley, what’s been going on?
HARLEY: It’s been a kerfuffle, yes. It’s been a bit of a disaster or setback but it’s not all over yet - - -
DOUG: Now - - -
HARLEY: - - - the Republicans – yeah?
DOUG: This was wrapped-up inside another Bill, wasn’t it? It’s all part of a major defence bill, the whole thing hasn’t proceeded – am I understanding that right - - -
HARLEY: Yes. It’s wrapped-up in the: “(National) Defence Authorisation Bill(sic)” [Act] (H.R. 2647, Pub.L. 111-84, 123 Stat. 2190.). The Democrats had put in a measure so that inside the annual defence authorisation bill which includes all the things – like, funding for all the Pentagon projects so they’re things that you can’t ever prevent; so, the Republicans shouldn’t really be able to stop that. Because then you’d be stopping funding for the troops. Which doesn’t go down very well in America - - -
DOUG: Right.
HARLEY: - - - and for the last 20-years possibly longer, whoever has controlled the House has added a whole bunch of pet projects to that Bill because it must pass so the other side can’t really block it.
DOUG: This is a process called: ear marking. Isn’t it?
HARLEY: Yeah – or its part of that wider problem - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
HARLEY: - - - that America has with earmarking. Last year they added hate crimes to the Defence Authorisation Bill and that managed to get through. This year they added a partial-don’t ask don’t tell repeal, it puts it back into the White House Pentagon’s control over when exactly, it will be removed. They also added an immigration measure that would allow people who came to the country as children – m’mm, illegally – (at) no fault of their own to complete military service or go to university, to gain citizenship. To start that path towards citizenship. So, this was all thrown into this one bill and there’s a lot of stuff in there for the conservatives in America to hate.
DOUG: [laughs] A little over-loaded for them, perhaps – is that the problem?
HARLEY: The phrase they use is: stocking-up the Christmas, they stocked it up with so much stuff that would help the Democrats in the coming mid-term November elections that the Republicans, they baulked at it. They could not possibly face it, passing so much left-wing material. Legislation.
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
HARLEY: (and)So they, for the first time in living memory they blocked it – now, nobody(sic) I’ve ever spoken with here in Washington, knows when this has happened before. That - - -
DOUG: So, they blocked the defence bill ‘cause they don’t like the bits-and-pieces that have been added to it.
HARLEY: - - - yeah. Now - - -
DOUG: That’s not a Republican thing to do – Republicans are rather crazy at the moment, aren’t they – with all this tea-bagging and everything else they’re getting up to?
HARLEY: It’s a bit schizophrenic, really. On one hand they’ve got the Tea Party movement, which is saying get rid of all the people in Washington including the Republicans - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
HARLEY: - - - and at the same time the Republicans are trying to win the Tea Party vote. The Tea Party are – they’re extremists. They are really no different from the One Nation Party, their economic platforms are basically the same. They want a flat tax or no tax and they want to keep immigrants out of the country, that’s(sic) really their only two policies. There’s not a lot of substance behind it. It’s just a lot of rhetoric and a lot of well spoken, pretty – m’mm, Alaskan women.
DOUG: [laughs] Yes, it’s a bit like the years of Margaret Thatcher, in those days in England there were suddenly an awful lot of women around in bright blue, two pieces. In America at the moment, there seem to be a lot of women around in bright red ones. Following Sarah Palin – but okay, so – the defence bill fell over. But that’s got to get back up somehow or another; otherwise, you’re not going to be able to pay the troops and things - - -
HARLEY: Absolutely. It’s not over by any means.
DOUG: What’s the next move?
HARLEY: Well, it could come up tomorrow but the fact is that this is a must-pass bill and there aren’t 60-votes required to remove: Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell – the, don’t ask don’t tell repeal – from this bill.
DOUG: So, it’s a stand-off at this moment. It’s a stand-off unless somebody changes sides?
HARLEY: M’mm, that is actually likely to happen. I was really surprised; it’s all come down to, they’re playing childish politics at this point - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
HARLEY: - - - because of the mid-term elections not next month, the month after that – in November, it’s all come down to ‘will we allow the other side a lot of air time to air their grievances during the debate’ – that’s what it’s all come down to. The Democrats said: no.
DOUG: M’mm, m’mm.
HARLEY: ‘We’ll either have an up-and-down vote but we won’t allow you to have an equal amount of debate time’ that’s what it came down to - - -
DOUG: Okay, hold-on there a moment. Just explain for the benefit of the non-political junkies we’ve got amongst our listeners, what an: “up-and-down vote” is?
HARLEY: Let’s start with the concept of the: filibuster.
DOUG: All right - - -
HARLEY: In the American senate, one side can block a bill from being debated any further. They can block it going to a vote, it’s a procedural motion and it requires two-fifths of the senate which has a hundred members, in order to defeat. So, it was intended to allow the minority who wanted to debate something a little bit further before it went to a vote, to have more time. An up-or-down vote is where it gets pushed to an actual vote and everybody says: yay(sic) – or – ‘nay’ and then, they can proceed from there - - -
DOUG: So - - -
HARLEY: - - - debate and proceeding to a vote.
DOUG: Okay – so, in Westminster terms in England, that’s what we’d call: guillotine. Bring in a guillotine and say, okay, debate’s over vote now.
HARLEY: Yes.
DOUG: Yeah and “filibuster” also means where you just keep talking ‘til the bill runs out of time, doesn’t it?
HARLEY: The bill actually never really runs out of time in the American legal system, anymore.
DOUG: No – m’mm, okay.
HARLEY: What a filibuster is has changed over the years; now – it used to be, that a person had to stand up, there – and had to read from a ‘phone book - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
HARLEY: - - - until everybody fell asleep and there was no longer quorum. Now, they’ve stopped doing that because presumably, they lost too many people - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
HARLEY: - - - the senators are quite old.
DOUG: Yes.
HARLEY: It’s not good for anyone’s health, for them to be standing-up there – m’mm - - -
DOUG: [laughs]
HARLEY: - - - and just reading from the ‘phone book. Now it’s become a procedural motion - - -
DOUG: Okay.
HARLEY: There is no down-side to filibustering, anymore. It means that Democrats can’t get anything done unless they agree to compromise and they won’t compromise on this, at this point in time.
DOUG: You’re saying maybe people will change sides and let this happen now?
HARLEY: I predict – m’mm, that as soon as the mid-term elections are over - - -
DOUG: M’mm?
HARLEY: - - - at the beginning of November, the politics will dissipate a little bit and while the senate is still sitting but before the new members come in – the ones who were elected in November – they can continue to legislate while the Democrats have control, they will reach an agreement then. That’s what I predict will happen and then we’ll see Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell repealed properly sometime in the early-to-mid stage, next year.
DOUG: Right; so, it’s off the agenda, temporarily – ‘til we get these elections out of the way. But aren’t the Democrats likely to lose seats in this election or is that not going to have any impact on this?
HARLEY: It will and it won’t. They probably won’t lose the senate, they probably will lose the house and so that means if they don’t get it done before the new representatives and senators take office – which I think is around January next year – between the election and when the new people take over, they will still have control of both houses. So they can still get things done during that caretaker period except it’s not a real caretaker period, but in all likelihood if this thing completely falls over and they have to re-start(sic) from scratch it won’t pass the house because it’s almost certain that the Republicans will control the house and there will be more than a few Tea Party members amongst the Republican ranks.
DOUG: This thing is dragging on forever-and-ever, isn’t it?
HARLEY: Yeah, it’s not over but it’s certainly suffered a significant setback.
DOUG: There’s been a lot of talk down the last couple of years that it’s actually unnecessary to go through all this and that President Obama could get rid of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell by executive order. Is this going to make him more – or less, likely to do that do you think?
HARLEY: I think lots of people think that this should make him more likely. The problem is that he and all the people around him, from the White House, have been telling us that his entire term in office – that it would be unconstitutional of him to do that, m’mm - - -
DOUG: [laughs] He needs fresh legal opinion.
HARLEY: - - - yes. They’re going to have to find some way ‘round it ‘cause that really is – what everyone is looking to them, now - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
HARLEY: - - - and you can almost guarantee that he will lose a hell-of-a-lot of money from donors, for his re-election campaign – if he doesn’t act – as an individual, if he doesn’t get involved in this issue. He has been very stand-off - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
HARLEY: M’mm, hands-off. He has been allowing the congressional members to do their thing and let congress try and work it out, itself. But it hasn’t worked. He’s been saying he can’t really get involved but we all know that he can if he really wanted to.
DOUG: It’s about time he spent a little bit of his political capital before it all disappears altogether [laughs] anyway, let’s leave the American military to their rather unnecessary gyrations on this topic - - -
HARLEY: [laughs]
DOUG: - - - and come back to the Australian Defence Force; now, Chief of the Defence Force, Angus Houston issued an instruction on Monday revoking the policy that effectively banned transgender service members. But allegedly there was no ban transgender members?
HARLEY: I found this a bit odd when I first approached the issue. I mulled for no more than a couple of hours before deciding that I was going to break this story; that this needed to get out there because I know that people were being removed from the Defence Forces ‘cause they were either found to be intersex or were considering undergoing some physical, transgender procedure. I know that there was an effective ban. I hadn’t read the policy at the time - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
HARLEY: - - - but I knew that there was an effective ban ‘cause people were being removed. When I went to the Defence Force to ask them for the policy they didn’t give me one, instead they told me that the new procedures would be that they would be – m’mm, helping people through this process.
DOUG: But they don’t actually have a new policy, yet – do they – I mean - - -
HARLEY: No.
DOUG: - - - they say they’re working on a new policy to address the issue so they haven’t got the old one or at least, they won’t say what it was. But they still haven’t got a new one.
HARLEY: I really can get a copy of the old policy – just because Defence Force won’t give me one doesn’t mean it’s not possible to get one.
DOUG: [laughs]
HARLEY: But I was taking them at their word. That the old policy wasn’t an actual ban, merely an effective ban because it meant that if people had been treated as if they are now medically incapable of serving then how is that not a ban, that’s exactly the same as what the federal government used to do with people who are HIV coming into this country - - -
DOUG: M’mm.
HARLEY: - - - it wasn’t a literal ban on people with HIV coming into the country – whatever, refugee or spouse or partner, that kind of thing – but because they made the threshold for the medical expenses as how much you could cost the country, at a certain level – and they placed HIV at a high level, it was in all intents and purposes a ban – and the Defence Force has done the same in this case so they have lifted the ban - - -
DOUG: Yeah.
HARLEY: - - - on transgender personnel. They haven’t technically lifted the ban on intersex personnel because they don’t recognise the status of intersex people. The federal government still works under the paradigm that everyone is either male or female - - -
DOUG: Right. It throws them out if you don’t fit into the binary, okay, I understand that.
HARLEY: That’s important because women are not allowed on the frontline, in the Australian Defence Force; so, what do you do with a person who doesn’t fit into that binary? The Defence Force is quite frankly at this time, not up to looking at that issue. They are not ready for it. I’m not sure that: DEFGLIS, the Defence Gay And Lesbian Information Service which is the group that advocates for the LGBT community within the Defence Force, is ready for it either. It’s a lot more complicated than what the Defence Force has had to deal with in the past.
DOUG: Let’s hope they do get on with it and no doubt, you’ll keep us a-breast if I may use the phrase - - -
HARLEY: Yes.
DOUG: - - - of – m’mm [laughs] of what is happening. Harley, thanks for calling-in today.
HARLEY: It’s a pleasure, Doug.
DOUG: That’s Harley Dennett there, our Washington correspondent with a tale of two militaries. Both the American and the Australian, of course he’ll be keeping us up-to-date on everything to do with the US as well, in future reports.
